An interview with Graeme Spicer
/In this episode, Toby talks to North American / Canadian Voice over industry legend (and Current Gravy for the Brain Territory controller) Graeme Spicer!
In today’s episode they discuss:
How voiceover artists are moving out of cities to the rural regions
How Covid 19 has taught producers that home studios are adequate for recording spots
Graeme's past career in advertising and as a marketing director and how this influences his current voice craft
Why group script read-throughs are so useful, why watching others is such a good way to learn
The previous organisations Graeme has been a part of; WOVO, Edge Studio, Voiceovers.com
How advertising has changed from using a single brand voice to a new voice for each campaign
A typical day as a voiceover (if there is such a thing!)
The Canadian accent, and how to master it
The difference in attitude between US East Coast and West Coast, and how it applies to VO
The benefits of showing range versus doing one thing really well
How modern casting has changed to be much more inclusive
Is warmup and vocal health important
How to use 'your instrument' better
Favourite voice genres vs the one you get hired for
How the damands of home studio operators is increasing
What gear are we using to record?
How do you decide on compression levels for your reads?
What is in the VO secret sauce?
How many agents do you have?
Is it important to have an agent?
What is the current state of the Pay to Play sites? And where will it go into the future?
How TTS and AI voices are making inroads into the world of VO
And MORE!
Here is a transcript of the interview:
Toby Ricketts
Welcome to vo life presented by gravy for the brain Oceania, the interview segment where I talk to people in the voiceover industry who are agents or they're producers, or they've also brought us to the top of their field so that you can hopefully benefit from some of the advice they have to give. And today on the podcast, I'm very pleased to present my good friend and fellow Gravy for the Brain territory controller, Graeme Spicer from Canada. Hello, hello.
Glad to be here. Absolutely. It's very, very good to chat to you. As I was just saying before, like we've, we've met briefly sort of in in zoom meetings and things and I and I had a sense that you were sort of, you know, voiceover kindred spirits. And so I wanted to explore that and find out more about your history. I'm fascinated, that used to be in advertising, and you've really kind of like, been around the industry for a long time. So I'm keen to sort of explore some of the aspects of the voice and industry who, which some people might not realize exists. So
Graeme Spicer
the way you say, I've been, you know, just you've been around the industry a long time, that doesn't sound so good
Toby Ricketts
just reading website, just reading your website. So you're based in Canada, we're about in Canada.
Graeme Spicer
I am about I just moved last. During the COVID, we bought a little house in a community about an hour outside of Toronto, I had been in Toronto for like 30 years.
Toby Ricketts
So I'm just outside of Toronto now in a little city called Hamilton. Oh, nice. So we both were both part of the exodus from the cities, the voiceovers saying, "I don't need to be in a big city anymore. I can go and do it anywhere in the world." I can't remember. Actually, that's not true. I can remember it since last March, when the entire world shut down. I have been in a recording studio other than my own once. That's it. I mean, there's no finally, what we already all knew is that, you know, we could do our job just as well or better remotely than we could actually in studio. Finally, all of the producers are starting to figure out and it makes their lives easier, too. So absolutely. Like, I mean, I've been saying for a long time for two local producers here in New Zealand, that, you know, I don't need to fly down and be in the session with you know, it's nice to sort of, you know, shake hands and everything, but everyone's learned during COVID that that's not necessarily true, you can have just as fruitful a business relationship, you know, via zoom, and using, you know, source Connect, and these voiceover tools, and there's really no compromises.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, I mean, source Connect sounds as good as if I was actually in the studio with them. The technology is flawless. And, and yeah, I mean, it's nice to get FaceTime in with these people on occasion, because I think that that helps build relationships. I think that the whole idea of having, you know, FaceTime is different now than it was pre COVID.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. And I always think you get a better performance with someone who's comfortable in their own home studio have a source Connect than you do for someone who's been sitting out in traffic for two hours. I've had two coffees, and I've just met all these new advertising people like I love the fact that there is this kind of curtain of privacy almost that sorts can it gives you because you can be in your pajamas. Like literally it's that dream that we talked about 10 years ago, but working on the internet, you can be in a big business meeting. And I've been doing commercials with, you know, 10 corporate executives from some big car company in the room in LA and I'm set here in my little studio in the middle of nowhere in my pajamas, and no one's any the wiser.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, well, I suppose in in your case, that is literally true because of the timezone difference. When it's morning in LA. It's, yeah, it's a bizarre time of the day for you. So it's very early. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
I may or may not be wearing pajama trousers now. So speaking of sort of, you know, advertising an ad, Matthew used to be an ad man, right?
Graeme Spicer
I did, I spent the first kind of 25 years of my career. Working on the other side of the glass. I worked at various advertising agencies. And then I went client side and worked as a director of marketing on the client side for, you know, several years before I kind of decided I didn't want to work for the man anymore. And voiceover was giving me a creative outlet that I just I didn't have worked in the corporate world. But yeah, I worked for 25 years in the advertising business and all of the stories you've heard from Mad Men, and they're all true.
Toby Ricketts
I'm surprised you would survive the alcohol poisoning.
Graeme Spicer
With a smoking I thankfully, I hit the industry just at the very tail end of the Mad admin era. So I did some drinking at the at the onset of my career, but certainly not as much as Don Draper and the rest of the Mad Men crew seem to have done.
Toby Ricketts
And I imagined that that would form a really good foundation. And it would really inform the way you market yourself and performance of voiceover. Correct?
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, I mean, I probably could use it more effectively from a marketing standpoint. I don't really. But I do think that it helps me understand more quickly, the essence of what the writer was trying to get across when they wrote that particular radio spot, or that particular televisions, but because I understand the business behind where he ended up with this script. So I do think it helps inform my reads. And now I'm going to start using it more effectively from a marketing standpoint. After he pushed me into Adobe,
Toby Ricketts
absolutely, um, yeah, because I mean, I was in radio, and then I was in a, you know, I was I was an engineer in a recording studio before that. So it's, I feel like that really was useful in terms of whereas if you watch the process in action, with a voiceover artist in the studio, you can learn so much, like, which is why I think like, gravy for the brain, script, read throughs, where, you know, everyone's having a go and watching and hearing the feedback is so useful, because like, if you've done that, you know, 1000 times, you get so much better just from watching someone be produced. So I've definitely felt felt that way, as an engineer that I've seen it done so many times that it's, it's easier for me to transition to doing it myself, you
Graeme Spicer
know, I have often thought that in, in a workshop, or group or group read situations that I've always learned more observing other people read, then when I'm actually reading myself, because I'm nervous, and I'm, I'm not really, you know, fully aware of what's happening, versus when I'm listening to somebody else, I am hearing the direction that they're being given. It's easier for me to internalize that hopefully, our our students agree for the brain find the same thing.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, I'd say and I think that there'll be a, like a really good sort of brain psychology reason for that. And that when you do have the, because it is nervous getting up in people and reading, when you're sort of not used to it. And when the adrenaline kicks in and your fight or flight kicks in, you know, your frontal cortex, the part that makes decisions and rationalizes things shuts down. So you're kind of just acting on instinct, and like a, like a, something, you know, deer in the headlights. Whereas I think when you're standing back, and you can, you know, rationalize everything and hear the feedback and hear they're not applying the feedback or whatever, it's a lot easier to sort of Judge from the sidelines. So,
Graeme Spicer
which is another reason probably why we can deliver as good or better performances in our own home studios remotely, then we can actually in front of 10 people behind the glass all staring at us as we're trying to perform the basic copy that's been given to us. Absolutely.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. Because once you know, once you've spent so much time in your own space, especially like doing auditions in front of a computer, it kind of feels like another audition, sometimes just with direction instead. So it's it really aids there. So let's do a quick tour of where you've been in the industry in terms of voiceovers because sort of in preparing for this, like I see that you you were a big part of sort of edge studio and for a while sort of voiceovers calm before coming to grow for the brand. So what organizations have you been involved with throughout your voiceover career? And just tell us a little bit about that experience?
Graeme Spicer
Well, I've been a member of world voices wovo since since it started, and I spent a period of time on the board at wovo. I was the managing director of edge studio, actually, edge studio was a great role for me, because I was able to take, you know, the 25 years of business experience that I had, and apply it to this business that I love voiceover I mean, it was it was a it was a good scenario. But it was hard to do that job living in Toronto and being based in New York. if for no other reason, from an immigration standpoint, it was a little dicey. So right. But I was the managing director of edge studio for four years. And I spent a brief period of time@voiceovers.com that I'm not going to spend much more time on other than to say that I was there. Fair enough. They are going through a lot of transition there right now. They've really been purchased by a venture capital company out of Canada actually called tiny, tiny capital. And I think they're they're doing some retrenching at voiceovers.com
Toby Ricketts
What is it with Canada and voiceover services? voices.com is based in in Canada. And you know, as you said, there's a lot of investment. It seems like it's quite sort of, especially from the money side of things Canadians believe in it more than Americans do. I mean, voices.com, voice123 the two biggest sites are based outside of America, which surprises me. Yeah,
Graeme Spicer
I mean, voice 123 likes you to think that they're based out of San Francisco, but they're based out of Columbia. Yeah. The President - Ralph actually sits in Holland I believe. So,
Toby Ricketts
yeah, completely. I'm the, what's it called a distributed workforce don't know they will ever have any offices. So it's, it's kind of weird. Like,
Graeme Spicer
I think they used to have an office in Columbia that they've, they've disbanded and everyone works remotely now. Well, welcome to 2021, the way of the world where I think companies are realizing that all of those expenses that they've been paying on, you know, expensive rent for offices and stuff, some of it, a lot of it is necessary.
Toby Ricketts
I would be very worried if I was a commercial building on it in a big city at the moment.
Graeme Spicer
Absolutely.
Toby Ricketts
So tell us about some of your voiceover work, like your biggest sort of gig to date. Some work you're most proud of, what would you What would you say? You know,
Graeme Spicer
it's funny, when I first got into voiceover, I thought I was going to be the, you know, because I had spent a little bit of time in radio back when I was in high school, and I thought I was going to be the big monster truck guy. And as it turns out, that's just not me. That's not my voice. That's not my personality. As you can probably hear, there's a bit of a raspy voice, I do a lot of like truck stuff in beer. You know that? That kind of stuff. I was the voice of a brand of beer here in Canada called Laker beer for several years. So you know, I'll occasionally get stopped in the supermarket or wherever where someone is heard my voice and your voice? Are you the Laker guy
Toby Ricketts
stopping using beard oil. And
Graeme Spicer
that's been a couple of years since that ran actually Laker hasn't been advertising on radio so much in the last couple of years. So
Toby Ricketts
it shows the power of voice as as a part of a marketing strategy, doesn't it? And I feel like that to listen that like the the millennial management coming through advertising now doesn't appreciate as much as their predecessors perhaps because I know in New Zealand here, the biggest brands used to have like one voice that was just the voice of their brand. And that was it. Like I knew as soon as they spoke, it was Oh, you're the telecom guy. But since then, it's like every campaign they cast for, and it's different every time, which is well confusing.
Graeme Spicer
And that's really been a trend in the US as well when we're looking at some of the biggest advertisers or insurance companies. So let's take Geico as an example. Where you know, Geico is famous for the Geico Gecko,
Toby Ricketts
but they visit with a funny little voice.
Graeme Spicer
Exactly. That kind of Cockney, East London was just adorable. It's a great campaign. But but they also are running concurrently, you know, other campaigns as well, again, always using humor, but but they're not sinking all of their, all of their money and, and, and all of their grps into into the one, you know, like go Gecko campaign.
Toby Ricketts
What's the GRP out of interest?
Graeme Spicer
Oh, gross rating point. It's a measure of television advertising. Right. Interesting. Cool.
Toby Ricketts
I was like to learn new acronyms. So what what's the normal voiceover day for you? Is this after thing is a normal voiceover day?
Graeme Spicer
Not really, which is I think, is one of the reasons why I love voiceover so much is I'm a very early riser.
Toby Ricketts
You I think I got a message from you, which is about sort of 2:30am your time.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, possibly. Yeah, I just I don't sleep very well. And I'm usually up by, you know, quarter to five or five o'clock local time. So I find my most productive time is, is in those first few hours. And it's not doing voiceover so much because my voice is, you know, it takes an hour or two to kind of warm up before I'm really ready to voice it. But I find those first couple hours when it comes to doing administrative stuff doing my invoicing and, and trying to chase down people that owe me money, things like that, is that's good time for that. And then I kind of, you know, dive into whatever has accumulated in my inbox since the previous evening. You know, I work with three or four companies that do a lot of IVR and phone prompts and a lot of that stuff because it's European based. The companies are European based rolls in overnight my time. When I arrive in the morning, there's usually some stuff there that needs to be done for that. You know, I'll take a look and see what's new on some of the online casting sites that I'm a part of, and, and if there's anything particularly juicy, I'll I'll throw in my auditions for that. And then, you know, I kind of start into whatever kind of larger projects might be on my plate at that particular moment, whether it's an E learning project or, or something like that. Hmm, fair enough. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
yeah. I'm the same in terms of like, Who am. I like that the days? No, today is No two days are the same, and that you're not quite sure what's going to arrive in your inbox that you'll have to deal with the next day. And sometimes it's a fantastic surprise. It's like, Oh, you know, you're the new voice of this Google department or something. And it's like, yeah. And and other days at the quiet days at the moment, they're also great to for me, because I'm putting the answer I was saying before, I'm putting the finishing touches to my house. And so anytime I can spend on the building site, like finishing off that is also great. So it's nice to have a balance of those two. And I feel like voiceover could probably be the best job in the world for work life balance, I reckon.
Graeme Spicer
Well, certainly. It's not like we sit at a desk, and we turn away on spreadsheets for eight hours a day, is that, you know, I'm not saying that our business is an easy one, because it's not, and it takes a lot of work to be successful at it. But it's one of those things where it's either feast or famine is that, you know, we we can do one session and get paid $5,000 for it. And then there's nothing for the next two days or three days, nothing like that. So yeah, it gives us that flexibility. Like, before I jumped on with you here now, I was in my bathroom, grinding out some tile so that I could make my my earnest register fit in the end where we just freshly had tiled in the bathroom floor. So
Toby Ricketts
I'm sorry to take you away from your grinding. Very good, right. So I as I was saying before, as well, I am and like regular listeners will know I kind of split voiceover into three sort of parts, which are equally important. the craft of voiceover, you know, how you actually perform voice health, all that kind of stuff, that the technology of voiceover how you record yourself, and then the business how you, you know, market yourself find work, and then, you know, charge money for that work. So, I just want to take one of those, each of those sort of areas. You know, I just asked you a few questions around your approach if that's all right. Firstly, so you're from Canada and I have been asked a little bit recently because I'm sort of a multi accent is to do a bunch of different stuff in different accents. So I've been asked to a Canadian accent. And it's one of the accents I'm least familiar with, and it annoys me. So I was kind of like going to get like a short little masterclass on what makes the Canadian different accents different from the American accent like what are the key differences that perkier is that when you hear Oh, that's not a Canadian accent.
Graeme Spicer
We tend to keep our mouth more closed, like, you know, the infamous out where, you know, Americans it's it's actually out it's three different sounds in there and your mouth actually opens quite wide as you say it, versus Canadians words, just out of our mouth is more closed. Hmm. And, but it's really subtle. The difference between a Canadian and an American accent. Usually, when the Americans are asking for a Canadian accent, because they're doing work for Canadian client, all they mean is they don't want someone that sounds like Colonel Sanders or, or something like that, where no obvious regional accent. There's, there's an accent that's kind of closest to what to how we speak in Canada. It's probably like Chicago, Wisconsin, like that kind of Illinois, Wisconsin, that kind of mid Upper Midwest. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
that's kind of a spectrum that sort of fades into Canada. Isn't that like you lose those those now? There's the sort of the freshness and that kind of Yeah, it does get more focus. If you're a fan of,
Graeme Spicer
of old movies, but Fargo the movie?
Toby Ricketts
Absolutely. Yeah. Minnesota.
Graeme Spicer
Francis McDormand. McDormand speaks with that.
Toby Ricketts
Brilliant. Yeah, it's beautiful.
Graeme Spicer
And that is sort of a Canadian.
Toby Ricketts
And I'm sure, like when you say a Canadian accent about like the New Zealand accent, there isn't one New Zealand accent. There's all kinds of you know, socio economic factors, location differences, etc. So I mentioned there's a bit of a range, and you can tell where someone's from.
Graeme Spicer
Absolutely. You know, there's, like, someone from the west of Canada tends to sound like someone from middle of Canada. But if you go to the east coast of Canada, like Newfoundland, Newfoundland is their, you know, they're famous for having a very strong, strongly accented delivery, which is really quite lovely and adorable, but it is a specialized thing that would be hard to, it's hard to find good voice actors from Newfoundland because most of them grew up with such a strong regional accent that you know, if you're not doing radio commercials for Newfoundland, it's pretty tough to sell.
Toby Ricketts
It's probably quite similar. I imagine that like America, I feel like America and Canada and New Zealand and Australia are quite similar in terms of like, we've got a, we've got a big neighbor who's kind of a bit louder and has a bit, you know, more sort of size in the world. And we're kind of like the quiet cousin, if you're like that with like, no one can tell our accents apart. But we can tell our accents apart a lot. You know, the Australian versus New Zealand accent, it's very subtle, but for Kiwis and Australians, it's like, blinding headlight differences, you know.
Graeme Spicer
So there really isn't as much of a difference between Canadians and Americans,
Toby Ricketts
right?
Graeme Spicer
I will often be pegged as a Canadian, when I am just speaking to someone like I'm speaking to you now. But when I'm in a voiceover booth, you know, I can put on a fairly neutral accent and no one like I've done a lot like I'm the national voice for Lennox home heating and air conditioning products in America. I've done a national campaign there that's running right now. And no one's ever gotten back to the client and said, You got a Canadian for that.
Toby Ricketts
I feel like Americans are kind of flexible, like there is this whole standard American thing. Like, which is like, you know, the voice of American it's, I feel like it's the easiest accent to do, which is kind of a it's kind of like a soft California and kind of, you know, Midwest II kind of thing. But like, there is so much cross pollination between accents increasing in America, and people don't seem to notice that much. And I wonder if they're a bit more flexible. They're used to hearing sort of slight variations and an accent. And it's not as important perhaps they'd really like nail that the the accent unless you're really distracting someone.
Graeme Spicer
I honestly think that when it comes to being a voice actor working in the us that there is, it's far more important, like West Coast delivery is very different than East Coast delivery, the actual craft. And I think that that is more important than trying to nail a specific West Coast versus East Coast accent. It's not so much the accent as it is.
Toby Ricketts
It's like the attitude. Absolutely. Yeah. That's really interesting.
Graeme Spicer
It is a it's a different vibe that comes from a West Coast. spot.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. There was a brilliant series recently. I think it was wired, did the did around America with the accent expert, his name escapes me now. I can't remember what it was. But I'll put a link down here. But but it's like he does three parts of American accents. And I didn't realize just how much variety there is, especially in the East Coast. It's just crazy. Absolutely, like proper state accents. And it's just phenomenal.
Graeme Spicer
So like, in in the New York, New Jersey area, you just crossed the Hudson River he had someone from New Jersey sounds completely different than someone from New York.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. And the bar is even like the Bronx, etc. It's
Graeme Spicer
like, very distinct.
Toby Ricketts
accents, one of the things that just fascinate me, you know, in terms of that way, how differently people can speak. And do you do you ever do offer accents other than Canadian and sort of standard American? Do you ever venture out?
Graeme Spicer
I've never been a big character guy. And, and even the characters that I do offer tend not to be so much grounded in a different accent or it's my it's usually more than just a different persona that I try to work with.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, right. Interesting. Yeah, it's, it's, there's the interesting thing in voiceover, like when I teach my sort of in person voice Academy course, we write down all of the different places you can find voiceover, and they fall distinctly and or not distinctly, but there's a spectrum of you know, straight voiceover, quote, unquote, and then the character of this end, and then you kind of realize that when people are reading a radio commercial, it's kind of a character, it's kind of the character of the voiceover guy, you know. So it's an it but it's interesting that there is this, you know, there was this really smooth sort of spectrum of between sort of, you know, your traditional straight voiceover and then just to the genius of characters and cartoons and animations, etc. Yeah, that's fascinating. How important is range? Do you think to being a voiceover artist?
Graeme Spicer
I think it depends. I, in smaller places like Canada, like in here in Toronto, having a wide range is very helpful. Because there's only so much work to go around and being able to being able to be potentially cast for, you know, any one of, you know, the 20 different jobs that may be circulating around town at any given time. Is is helpful versus in Los Angeles or in New York, like in New York Joe Pesci can make an entire living just doing Joe passion. He doesn't have to. Yes not to do anything else other than, you know that one voice. I remember, if you remember, a voice actor named Lorenzo music, who was based out of California, he was the voice of Garfield the cat. But he had that real kind of monotone. Very droll delivery. That's all he did. That's all he did, and was able to make a, you know, a great living at it. So I think it depends on the size of the market you're in.
Toby Ricketts
And yeah, it's interesting. It's an interesting marketing, sort of conundrum in terms of like, do you go abroad and say, you know, because some sometimes like, because I do quite a few different accents or different deliveries, and I've got lots of work showcasing all of it. But it's a bit confusing as an end, someone hiring a voice, if someone just says I can do anything you can like, okay, but if someone comes to you and says, I do the best cockney accent in the world, you're like, oh, shout to me, you know, I wait till I've got a cop. Next, I'll write something for you. That's got a cockney accent, you know. So it's, but you know, that does shoehorn you into into kind of a corner. So it's a very interesting marketing decision to go both ways.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, I have found that somewhere in the middle has worked best for me is that I tend to get those Mike Rowe sort of roles that, you know, the narrating TV shows and things like that, that construction. And yeah. blowing things up and things like that. Yeah. It tends to be where I fit and a lot of beer and pick up drugs. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. stuff, huh.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, it's interesting how we sort of gravitate towards certain voices for certain things. And it's an interesting time in the voiceover industry, because we're kind of being forced away from stereotypes, you know, like that. You can't there are no castings anymore that say, I want you know, a 40 year old white male to do that. It's like I every every casting that comes at the moment says, open to all submissions from any ethnicities, any genders, everything, like every single casting has that. And I wonder if that is genuine? Or if it's a kind of a disclaimer saying, Oh, no, we're not being racist. We cast everyone. When, you know, I wonder how much of that is for show? Or how much genuine you know, anyone could actually do this role? Because I feel like when you see the ads produced, nothing much has changed. Yeah, what are your thoughts on the on the way that it's changed now, so that, you know, there's lots of casting going on for which is meant to be indifferent to race and gender, etc? But sometimes, kind of, yeah, what do you think what's going on at the moment? Because it's kind of confusing. Certainly,
Graeme Spicer
certainly, practically every audition that passes across my desk now has like bipoc, or something like that in black indigenous people of color. I think that there's a lot more sensitivity within the advertising community towards being more inclusive. I don't think that that necessarily is excluding anybody either, though. But, you know, you can see it very evidently, when you look at I was just remarking to my, my wife, the other night, as we were watching some TV, is that, you know, practically every couple on TV now is either it's a gay couple, or it's a bi racial couple, or, you know, they're going to extraordinary lengths to try and demonstrate their inclusive inclusivity. And I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing.
Toby Ricketts
No, no, no, I think it's definitely it's definitely a good thing, isn't it? But what my problem was, being someone that does accents was, you know, if I'm asked to do an accent, for a minority, for example, I do really well, I'm just hypothetically, then, you know, do I deserve to take that away from someone from that minority who might do almost as well or something like that, you know, when your job is to is to pretend to be other people? Are you taking away the work from those other people? Like, I know, the Simpsons voices, you know, there was that thing with the Indian voices? And if you're, if you were, you know, doing ethnic voices, for example, is that morally justifiable these days? And so it's been an interesting debate. Yeah,
Graeme Spicer
Hank Azaria from from the Simpsons issued, you know, quite a profound apology, just fairly recently, in the past month or so, where he basically apologized for APU and then the fact that he has, you know, extended the stereotype of the, you know, Indian convenience store owner far longer than it deserved to be extended. And there's been a real debate within the voiceover community in the past couple of years about whether if, if the spec on a breakdown is asking for an African American Nail, is it okay for a white person, like a Caucasian person to audition for that if they can do a authentic African American accent, like there was a case a couple years ago of a white female voice actor, based on the west coast, who did a real, authentic African American dialect. And she really when she was kind of exposed, because she actually had a whole different persona, she had a different website, the whole deal, you know, to, to kind of portray this, this, you know, African American woman, right? She was pilloried in the industry, for, you know, maintaining this persona. So I think that there's been such a predominance for 50 years or more of every role of going to, you know, white males, that now if there's an opportunity to cast an African American male to play an African American male, then we should probably go with the African American versus some white guy that can sound like that.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting time. But I think we've come out on the right side in terms of you know, everyone's accepting that, you know, in the industry, which is good. So to completely change tech, because we kind of were talking, there's so much good stuff going on, we're kind of not getting through the blood, lots of questions that I want to get through. So pretty quickly, what's your Do you have a an idea about vocal health and warm ups, etc? How much emphasis Do you place on that?
Graeme Spicer
Not nearly as much as I should
Toby Ricketts
tell you my answer. Exactly. I teach it but I don't do it.
Graeme Spicer
I think it's important. And I think that Peter Dixon's warm up technique that is in built into one of our grades for the brain courses, and I can't remember right off which one it is, is dynamite. And Peter Dixon, who, you know, we all aspire to be Peter Dixon. Does, you know, he religiously does a vocal warmup before, before he does any sort of work. That's, you no strenuous at all. So, you know, if we go by the people that are really at the top of the game, they do do vocal warm ups? I do. Some humming, and that's about it. Unfortunately, not before I start in the mornings. Yeah. I guess part of what I do tends to some of that sometimes that morning voice I have that gravel is even further accentuated. And that's not necessarily a bad thing, depending on the particular the particular audition or project I'm working on. Totally. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
I mean, I definitely find that the first thing in the morning before warm ups is kind of my best, like my some of my best tones, But the trouble is getting back there and having a live session like three in the afternoon when you haven't got their voice like trying to match it is really tough.
Graeme Spicer
I you have to schedule it for eight o'clock in the morning session. No,
Toby Ricketts
no, not. The other day, I actually paid the price for it because I did a a network voice for a, like New Zealand radio network here. And it's really kind of intense voice. So like, you really push your voice like in every everything. And this is like a half an hour session, but by 15 minutes, like I was hurting. And I was just like, I'm not sure I can make through the session like I should have, I should have warmed up, but I did push through, but then it just hurt for like a day or two after it. So I backed off on audition. So you do pay for not doing it so forth sessions where I'm really gonna be using my voice, especially long form anything over five minutes or something, I will I now will instigate just even just just reading interspersed with warm water just to kind of get everything going first. But especially those imaging sessions, they're really tough.
Graeme Spicer
I think that a big part of it is also it's warming up, but it's also knowing how to use our instruments because there's probably a way that you can achieve that same sound that you're looking for for that imaging project that isn't as hard on your voice as breathing as a speech pathologist in order to know about the positioning of of the sound in various spots in your throat and in your mouth. So
Toby Ricketts
possibly even just turning up the gain on your mic and your headphone volume, because then you back off physically in terms of producing noise.
Graeme Spicer
Well, and I certainly you know, I've been lucky enough to be like in studio with like, some of the best trailer guys in Los Angeles, Scott Rommel as an example. Scott Rummel when he's doing a trailer is barely speaking above a whisper. He is so quiet and he's ready. up on is 416? Or is 41. Six as to Yeah. And and he's speaking barely above a whisper. And that's Guess how he can pull off that trailer voice? You know, eight hours a day, five, six days a week?
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, I remember hearing a really interesting podcasts on the voiceover via social I think it was and they talked to like, you know, death metal band lead person singers who basically just get up there and scream for 90 minutes, because I don't know about you. But if I have to do anything that involves raising my voice even slightly like little and screaming, my voice is shot for a long time. So how do they do it? And they have a special technique, they learned a special technique where they can make it sound like they're really screaming. But again, they're barely making any noise. And they just got their hands cut around the microphone to make it sound louder than it is. So it's very much the same for voiceover. Yeah, yeah. How interesting. What's your favorite genre? Mike, I guess you have a favorite perhaps. And then there's the one you work in most, or maybe they're the same.
Graeme Spicer
But when I work in most is probably commercial. The one that I really enjoy doing is broadcast narration, like in short narration. I've done, you know, a number of different series for, you know, North American networks like HGTV and Discovery Channel, things like that. And I really enjoy doing in show narration.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. documentary IMC
Graeme Spicer
is a lot of fun, where you're actually, you know, you're there with the showrunner or the producer, the director story, and you're actually working to picture which is challenging, it's fun.
Toby Ricketts
Um, another thing I've had this request recently from a couple of auditions is when you need to be set up to do in picture, you know, because of COVID, now, you know, used to go to a studio and they'd have it all synced up with their Pro Tools in the studio, and you'd punch in etc. Now, the onus simple kind of going into the tech space, which is good, but like, I've definitely seen more demands come through from clients, for me to be able to play back in session, edit, like keep, keep, like the good versions that keep another session open, have the good takes. So I feel like my skills as an audio engineer have been drawn upon much more even replacing the audio engineer that they'd usually go to. And they can direct the voiceover attitude got that, that? That idea, and I recently saw an audition where they said, you need the ability to playback video and record two video at the same time, which is like quite a step up in terms of running your own home studio, as
Graeme Spicer
it certainly is. And there's only I think source Connect is only just recently come up with a product that allows for, you know, timecode locked playback from one to another. I mean, literally, it's only been in the past six months, I think, yeah, remember, right, where they've come up with that product. I mean, before then, I don't know, if it was even possible, because latency would would really screw because the timing needs to be so exact is that latency would really mess up your ability to unless you were driving the picture, I guess on your end,
Toby Ricketts
yeah, if you both had local copies of the picture somehow. And then it was just the timecode that was locked. When it played back to the audio, I have seen people where you have an external screen on your da w which is obviously showing the picture. And then you share that as a zoom thing. But you need quite high bandwidth to show like I did one the other day where they put my voice with the picture and and play the back for everyone. And you would only get about every fifth frame or something. It was very choppy. And it was you know, it didn't it didn't work perfectly. So I think we are on the cusp, in terms of internet speed and the technology to do live picture from our home studios remotely, and it's kind of working for everyone. So that's exciting. Well
Graeme Spicer
now now that we have you know, gigabit internet and stuff, I mean, the bandwidth there, I think it's just a matter for, you know, us to catch up from a technology standpoint, because I'm sure it's possible and haven't yet played with this new source Connect product, but you know, quite anxious to do so because I I would like to be able to think I'm codes MBA, if you're in my own studio.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. Likewise, slowly. So speaking of your own studio, mics, prees da w gear, what are you using?
What you said
Graeme Spicer
I have, I have own so many mics and so many preamps in my, you know, 12 years as a voice actor.
Toby Ricketts
There's been an explosion in the last few hours to say
Graeme Spicer
and I've actually ended up with a fairly simple setup is that I have you know, I've I've had manly preamps and dw Fern and all of these, like, esoteric, who super high end wants to risk you know, preamps and Matt I had the manly reference cardioid microphone for a while and I had a Are you 47 fat for a while, and I've just, I've really simplified I have a u 87. And I have 416. But the more six I rarely use, I just use it here as a zoom mic. Yeah. And I have them going into Universal Audio Apollo rackmount. And then I use the manly box box plug in. And that is where my sound comes from. Generally,
Toby Ricketts
yeah, absolutely. I'm, I've had this exactly the same journey in terms of I used to have the this amazing multi chain setup, and I had to use 67. So like the valve version of the 87, which was original vintage, once I had that lovely vintage sound. And I used it for a number of years. And I had the problem of whenever I traveled, you just can't travel with that mic. Like it's so delicate. If you drop it, there's $12,000 gone, you know, it's ridiculous. And there's a power supply that you could lug around as well. It's just impractical. So I thought well, let's like try and get to smaller mics. And I used to have a Norman kaimai 84 which is like a little pencil instrument Mike. Lovely, detailed but very heavy on the pops and things. It's not designed for voiceover really. So I was kind of I was I was okay with that, because easy to travel with. And then I got to 416 416 416 on eBay, a secondhand one that had a sound recordist who was selling off as part of his kit, it was it's like an old one. And I just started using that and the noise was so low and it was so kind of crisp, and so robust that you could literally just leave it out in the rain overnight, probably. And it still worked. The next day that I've tried that don't even try that. But I've traveled with all around the world. And you just wrap it in some bubble wrap and chuck it in your suitcase. And it's just, it's just been such a good workhorse. But race and so like I've been a fan of of keeping it as simple as possible. So when you're traveling, you just have a mic, a lead and an interface and a laptop. And that's it. Everything else is in the box. So that if you need to do pick up on a project that in my studio, you just make a pillow fort in your hotel room, right, and then apply all the stuff that you usually apply, you know, in terms of plugins, and then you've got exactly the same sound like you don't have to go back and do too much work, which for the other mics was impossible, though, to try and record on a different mic and make it balanced.
Graeme Spicer
Which actually why I you know, have kind of settled on using the Universal Audio family and that box box plug in. And I don't travel with my u 87. I use my 416 when I travel but I'm you know I I'm able to tweak using the box box and a couple of other plugins that can emulate this theme so that it sounds sort of sort of ish.
Toby Ricketts
A bit of a bit of a honest enough. Yeah, a bit of a lift in basin and travel etc. Um, yeah, I recently got a road and key to valve Mike as because I want to get you 87. But there's been so much talk recently about that. Why does everyone need you 87. They are a great mic, but they really that much better than everything else. So this was kind of an experiment, the Cato and I set it up for a little bit and it was quite good. But again, it was a secondhand one, it had a little bit of noise. So I'm going to solve that issue first. But I think it is I think everyone's who's at the sort of top level of voiceover has settled on the fact that you need like forensics for cut through. And then like a nice warm mic for narrative delivery, you know, so you've got those two options. It seems to be wherever unsettling, which is, which is quite heartening.
Graeme Spicer
You 87 is like the world's best microphone by any means. But it's such standard that totally, you know, engineers like it when you say you're talking into a u 87. For two reasons. Number one is they know exactly how to EQ it and so on because they worked with it so often. And the second thing is it just lets people know you're serious. Totally.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. It's like an entry criteria, isn't it? It's you know, it's like, yeah, you're a proper voiceover then. Do you record in 44? Or 4816? Or 24?
Graeme Spicer
orders? In 44 124?
Unknown Speaker
Right.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, I have no idea. No, I don't I record 4824.
Unknown Speaker
Right. Yeah.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah.
Graeme Spicer
Most of the video clients want it. 48. Exactly. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
that's, that's that's definitely my reason and 24 bits. I, because of the Pro Audio suite podcast, actually, they did a really good episode a while back about bit rates and why it's so important to have more the more bits the better because your your dynamic range is, you know, massively different, you can get a real different sound. So that's why
Graeme Spicer
they would just press the crap out of it. Anyway. Whatever genetic rays we had recorded in 24 bit, we just lost it all the crap
Toby Ricketts
out of nothing below minus six dB. You so you're pretty comfortable with your tech level of voiceover. Like you're very comfortable in your studio and you've been sort of technophile.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah. I'm not a technical. I'm not a tech guy. Like George Widom is where, you know, I, you know is all of the ins and outs of routing, a 48 channel, you know Neve board or something like that. But I certainly have had a lot of microphones and preamps and stuff go through my studio. So I know a lot of I know a little bit about a lot of equipment. It's a good way to be.
Toby Ricketts
And your compression approach because I've done a lot of sessions on compression recently. What is your approach to compression because people get that it can really alter your sound and ruin a good voiceover sometimes if it's not enough or too much.
Graeme Spicer
You know, what's funny is that just recently, I had one of my agents call me and say, Ram, your audio sounds off, what's going on? And I listened to it, it's like, you're absolutely right, like I am. Like, it's, you know, it's easy to incremental, incrementally add a little more here a little more here. And oh, let's let's add, you know, one of the 1176 plugins just to give it a little bit of that sound and, and then you end up with a processing chain like this deep on plugins, and I just stripped everything back to, you know, I apply a little bit of compression on the way in using the Vox box compressor, which is the Vox box emulation, that Universal Audio as manufactured is lovely like evanna manly, I don't know if you've how many stories you've ever heard about Ivana manly, who's the president of the owner of manly labs. He's like, crazy defensive about her stuff. And for her to license Universal Audio to produce a Vox box, you know, it sounds like a Vox box. And so I use a little bit of compression on the way in using the Vox box plugin. And I
I add just a touch of it. I use a plugin called the Oxford inflator, which is like
a limiter sort of write write, which adds a little bit I just touch more and then I my little, my little bit it's a little bit yeah, and then a little bit of secret sauce is to I add a little bit of the effects aural exciter right? Like,
Toby Ricketts
that's always the secret sauce, isn't it? It's one of those oral exciters I used to have a little touch of that I used to have the BB Sonic Maximizer Do you remember those they used every radio studio. And no one knew what it did. There was just two knobs on it. It was one likes energy and frequency or something and you tweak them and you just settle on something. And again, like it would make your voice sound amazing. And there's all this blurb about it. You know, harmonizing the frequency didn't didn't make any sense. But it just sound I think it was just an EQ basically in a box. Nice. But I got rid of that. Because again, I couldn't take that on tour with me and I have a drastically different sound when I did pick up so it's um, yeah, but it's so it's so funny how you you'd say you know, you can get you can go down these rabbit holes. It's about like when you go into Photoshop a picture. And you you add a bit of contrast, add a bit of vibrance, add a bit of contrast, and it's suddenly you got this like weird alien image that looks great to you. Because you know, you've only seen that so you need a reference to always go back to him be like this still sound like this good audio got over here. Yeah, it can be quite dangerous going down those rabbit holes.
Graeme Spicer
Absolutely. I clearly did. And thankfully my agent called me out on it. And
Toby Ricketts
yeah, exactly. I'd have
Graeme Spicer
far simpler, a far simpler processing gene. Yeah.
Toby Ricketts
So speaking of agents, you have a number of agents, like sort of a lot of us in the continental states and, and North America.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, I have, I have three in the US. And I have, it's important to have a local one here in Toronto, just the Toronto marketplace is such that, you know, most of the good stuff comes through even the non union stuff comes through one of three agents. So I'm represented by one of those three agents, Roger King at pn agency. And then I have three different agents in the US.
Toby Ricketts
It's an unusual market that in terms of you can have multiple agents within the US it's and it's it's all done in an England and Australia and New Zealand, the places I have agents, you know, it's exclusive for the whole country, whereas, you know, America, it's kind of exclusive to the coast and in central almost you can kind of get away with having, you know, a couple of states between your agents, but that you can you know, that you can definitely have a lot more than you could in other territories. But I guess that speaks of how, how big the industry is there and how widespread it is and how much work there is.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, absolutely. Although you still end up getting a lot of the same auditions from more than one agency do.
Toby Ricketts
You have to balance Well don't, don't get the lottery. And I get this question a lot from New beginners who are starting, and they've, they've done some great design courses, and they've maybe got their first few sort of pay to play gigs, or, you know, they see getting an agent as like that you're past the threshold, and you've made it once you got an agent, and they'll get you all your work. And it'll be fantastic. But I mean, I tell them, it's like, you know, you need to have other options I can an agent is a kind of a nice, but it's not crucial by any means.
Graeme Spicer
About a third of my revenue comes through my agents. Yeah. But only a third, like two thirds of it is stuff that either their clients that I first discovered, or they first discovered me through an online casting site, and then have reached out to me directly, or I still do work through online casting sites. And by the third of it comes comes from my agents. And that's quite comfortable for me, I
Toby Ricketts
don't think I want a whole lot more coming through my agents. Hmm, fair enough. And so with online casting sites, and what's your preferred ones, at the moment, when this the big players this, I feel like someone starts a new pay to play site every week at the moment? Like there's just so many coming out little ones, big ones, even like what the voiceovers.com experiment, which seems so good in the start, and they really started with such a history role, and that they were going to change everything. And then it just, for whatever reason, it just didn't happen, which was, which was disappointing for the industry. And I'm sure them as well. What do you see as the kind of like, what Where do you think the pay to play industry is at the moment? What are your preferred ones? And where do you see it going into the future?
Graeme Spicer
You're right. There's always, well, yeah, we could spend an entire hour now talking about this. There's always new ones coming on board. The the new one is cast voices calm that we're all very hopeful for because it's being run by Liz Atherton, who is a former agent and a team that she's put together. And they promised to be very voiceover friendly. But, you know, the lesson I learned in the time i spent@voiceovers.com, is that you know how you make a voiceover happy, you have lots of jobs for them. Yeah, that's, that's what it comes down to. And all of the other stuff that we as voice actors like that bitch and moan about about the online casting sites, believe me all that goes away. If they have lots of jobs for you to like, Listen for. Yeah, that's what it comes down to. And I have to tell you, my online casting site of choice right now is voices calm. And there's a certain irony in that, because five years ago, I was one of the leaders of the charge of, you know, holding voices calm, accountable. For what at the time, were some fairly shady business practices, they've really cleaned that up. The transparency that we always wanted out of voices.com is now there, we may not love their business model, because they extract an you know, fees at a bunch of different levels. And not every voice actor is very happy with that. But as far as I'm concerned, paying voices.com a 20%. commission or however they want to whatever terms they want to couch it in. But it's basically a 20% Commission, I pay my agent 20% Commission, and I don't think twice about it. So I, I certainly find that, you know, online casting sites expose you to a lot of jobs that you would never otherwise have access to. Absolutely, yeah.
Toby Ricketts
And I mean, I've, I've I never thought of, I was very concerned when the voiceovers.com sort of expos they happen with all the stuff that was going on. But I do feel like they they did. They have, like you say they have made inroads into making it really transparent. And I mean, you know, I have had some of my biggest paying jobs ever have come through voices calm, like, and they've been really high profile, you know, big jobs, which have been paid well for like, and so. I yeah, they've they've have made an interesting transition through through that process into in terms of, you know, cleaning their act up. So, yeah, it's, it's interesting to hear you say that as well. And I kind of hope that would happen, because that's, that is always where had the most jobs have been, I feel like, you know, voice 123 is a very close second, but especially for the American market, you know, voices.com does seem to be there.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah. And I think that, you know, we all are hopeful that cast voices and voice realm and some of these other online casting sites are successful, but at the end of the day, the network effect matters and 95% of the work is split between voices calm and voice One, two. 3d comm you know, the last 5% is split amongst 10 other little players. You know, I love Armin hostetter. And but Dalgo we all love Arman, he sees a character, he loves voice actors, and it's clear, he loves voice actors, because his site is built to be very voice actor friendly. But at the end of the day, there's like, you know, this many jobs versus this many jobs on, you know, the other kind of two Titans in the business?
Toby Ricketts
Absolutely. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, the future is perhaps just those, those two, the sort of duopoly continuing I think, especially with the they've both been dancing around the whole TTS question and the text to speech, Ai, voices, etc. and coming up with interesting ideas, I know voice 123 and Rolf was was had some very interesting ideas about, you know, offering a TTS service that was kind of with voice actors, and kind of not, you know, it's I haven't heard any results of the experiments who's been running, but that'd be very interesting space to watch, I think, Well,
Graeme Spicer
I think that we all have to acknowledge as much as we are, are fearful of it, that text to speech and, and AI technology is very good, and getting better quickly. And that some of the lower end stuff that, you know, a lot of us kind of make the majority of our money on elearning. And things like that is, is going some of that stuff is going to transition to text to speech, and there's going to be not a lot we're going to be able to do about that. So, you know, having like what Ralph is, is undertaking at voice 123 in trying to get ahead of that and allowing voice actors to offer synthesized voices, as part of, you know, licensing, synthesize voices to companies so that they can use them for eLearning or whatever is better that than just being completely shut out.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And there are so many sites that are in the public that the speeches and stuff that say, you know, wow, it sounds just like a real human voice. And you sit here and you think that's it, though. It's cheap, doesn't quite, you can still tell it is getting closer, though. I was looking at things and cleaning some bricks wasn't the other day and I looked up an explainer video on YouTube. And we're listening to it my thought, I think that's an AI voice, because you can just tell but it's getting so close now. It's it's like too consistent. If they put more floors in it would sound like a voiceover sort of thing. You know.
Graeme Spicer
And, and to be fair, is that when you're listening to a explainer video on cleaning bricks, How good does it need to be?
Toby Ricketts
There's no emotion involved? There's literally just Yeah, yeah, yeah. If it conveys the words, then the words are the that, you know, whereas I thought, I think I think a gaming and you know, character and advertising are going to be a lot further down the track. Because if they can get like a, you know, if advertising directors going in and spending two hours with a talent that's had 30 years of experience, and they they still take two hours to get there. Imagine how much code they'd have to write to try and programming AI to do the same thing?
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, certainly. Because what, because what advertising, the directors are often looking for is flawed. They're looking for flaws in our performance, as part of making it more human. It's going to be net. I never say never, especially when it comes to computer technology. But it's going to be a long time, I think before they're going to be able to build an AI voice that is going to be good enough to convey the emotion that we need to convey when we are reading advertising copy.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, very much.
Graeme Spicer
Let's hope so. Anyway,
Toby Ricketts
exactly.
Fantastic. Well, we have gone over so much ground, we are nearly at the end. But if you've got five more minutes, I'll just want to cover some sort of, you know, a lot of people watch these videos, because they are interested in you know, becoming a voice actor. Starting the side hustle, as it may be, where do you advise, you know, absolute beginners who say, you know, my auntie says, have a great voice. I should be a voiceover artist, which is the classic one, or you know, everyone tells me I've got a great voice. Where do you advise them to start if they want to start?
Graeme Spicer
While Grady for the brain is a great start, because there's so much there's so much information available to review for the brain members that it's daunting, it's overwhelming. It's it's a great resource. The best piece of advice I could give to someone who's just getting into the business, and it's a piece of advice I had been given 12 Two years ago and didn't heat and I wish I had spent half as much money on equipment and twice as much money on training.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, right. Yeah. Because it sticks, I'd say as well, I had to
Graeme Spicer
go down the, you know, Mike rabbit hole of, you know, you know, wanting to try every mic. And as I've always said, you know, a great performance on Okay, Mike will beat an okay, performance on a fantastic mic every time. Yeah, it's about our performance. And I don't think that the majority of our clients can tell the difference between a $200 Mx L. Mike made in China, and anointment u 87. Yeah, I just don't think they can.
Toby Ricketts
And also, you know, to back that up as well, with the acoustics argument, it's like, you know, if you if you spend $3,000, on on your mic, and only, you know, nothing on your acoustics, you get a great recording of a terrible room. As opposed to having a you know, okay, yeah, dead room.
Graeme Spicer
Yeah, it's, you know, you hear stories of people setting up their $1,000 mics on their kitchen table, and you just rent, because you're never going to get you're never going to get a sound that's going to be acceptable to the majority of clients recording in your kitchen without, without proper acoustic treatment.
Toby Ricketts
Exactly. Um, do you think it's harder or easier than it used to be to become a voiceover because I kind of chanced into it and being in a parallel industry, being an audio engineer in the kind of, you know, recording studio radio kind of world, and then I sort of transitioned sideways. There's so many more resources available to become a voiceover now. But there's so many more people who want to become voiceovers, it's kind of been popularized as a profession. So, you know, what do you see? Do you think it's easier or harder these days,
Graeme Spicer
I think it's relatively the same, because as technology has allowed for this explosion in the number of voice actors out there, because the barriers to entry have come down so far, you know, now you can get a $200 Chinese made microphone, that's going to sound perfectly acceptable to 99% of the clients out there. But that same advancement in technology that is allowed for, for this, you know, explosion in the number of actors has also caused an explosion in the amount of content that's being created. That requires our, our efforts. You know, there's not ABC, NBC and CBS is three broadcast networks in the United States. Now another 600, cable channels, all of them require, you know, they're they're these massive, you know, machines that just eat content. 24, seven, you know, something needs to be produced in order to fill all that time. That's something someone needs to voice all of those explainer videos and all of those corporate videos that are going on corporate websites. I mean, this stuff didn't exist 20 years ago. So I I'm, I'm still very optimistic. I think that it's as good a time as it's ever been to. seriously consider becoming a voice actor. I don't think it's easy. I think you need to work hard at it. I don't think you can just sit and wait for your phone to ring with your agent, you know, giving you your living. It just doesn't work that way. You need to hustle. Yeah, but I think it's as good a time as it's ever been become a voice actor.
Toby Ricketts
What a brilliant answer and a brilliant place to finish our wonderful conversation today. Thank you so much Graeme Spicer and you can catch all of his great content on gravy for the brain. Of course, the Canadian just search for the Canadian webinars and read throughs in there. It's been fantastic to catch up. We've covered a lot of ground.
Graeme Spicer
Thank you so much, Toby. I'm excited to be here. And I'm so glad that we had an opportunity to spend this hour together.
Toby Ricketts
Fantastic. Thank you.