Chris Nicholl - the Imaging King!
/Back in September, I spoke to an old colleague from New Zealand radio, and a New Zealand Broadcasting School fellow graduate!
Chris Nicholl is the owner and founder of Wizz FX, a specialist radio imaging, audio branding company working with some of the biggest broadcasters and brands in the world - the BBC, Capital FM, KISS FM, stations right across Europe and America.
We discussed what radio imaging is, why it is important, the process of translating a brand into a sound, how and why a particular voice is selected or cast for an imaging project, what is involved in being the voice of a station, how to charge for being the voice of a station or broadcaster, how some voice over artists sound better compressed than others.
We also do a 'demo session' and Chris gives the feedback he'd usually give to talent in the booth. More info: www.wizzfx.com
Here is the transcript:
Toby Ricketts
Welcome to gravy for the brain, Oceania and VO life. It's the interview series which goes behind the scenes of the voiceover industry and associated craft and find out a little bit more and get a chance to geek out a little bit in the world of voice. And joining me today is a total nerd of audio. A kindred spirit of mine. It's Chris Nicholl from Wizz FX. Welcome, Chris.
Chris Nicholl
Hello, thank you for having me.
Toby Ricketts
That's quite right. You're a kiwi expat. You're living in London actually - not London anymore. You were in London, right? I was. Yeah. And now
Chris Nicholl
I'm in the southwest of England. A Shire called Devonshire.
Toby Ricketts
Love it. I feel like we are at the cusp of doing a series of like, of Kiwis doing good things in audio overseas. So you're the first There you go. Welcome.
Chris Nicholl
Oh, cool. Yeah, I'll bet that you can get a you know, I'm probably the lowest point to start I'm
Toby Ricketts
gonna give us have somewhere to go. Now we know each other from the hallowed halls of the New Zealand broadcasting school. And that's where I think you kind of got into imaging kind of early. You've got a company called whiz effects, which is like the one like one of the best imaging country companies in the world. You service like clients all over the world, don't you?
Chris Nicholl
Yes, that's right. Yeah. So we have originally started with clients in New Zealand being an expat and has grown into we've worked with stations and faraway places as Iceland. But now yes, a lot of American stations, quite a few European stations, quite a few British stations, English stations, BBC and stuff like that. So yeah, we're, we're, we're in amongst it with some of the very big companies say we're quite a small company, but hopefully punching above our weight.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. Definitely. Definitely. So imaging, what is it? Because most people won't really send without imaging. What do you mean? Is that something to do with cameras?
Chris Nicholl
Yeah, well, I mean, this is the age old issue. I think, with all people who work in imaging, I still can't really explain this to my mum. And I've only been doing it for 20 odd years. So yeah, I mean, imaging is like the bits, I think, on a radio station that create the brand. And I think the word imaging is the it's it's not the right term, really, that's kind of what it's has been used. Because when you watch a TV station, and you see the little identifiers in between, either between ads, or maybe even just at the end of an ad break before the next TV show starts, whatever it'll have the logo won't and it'll say a little bit about what's coming up. Or maybe it's a competition or it's promoting another show. So those kinds of elements, but in a in a radio sense, obviously with just audio. And and some I think I, I think a lot of people that do radio imaging prefer internally to call it audio branding, because really, that's what it is. But yes, certainly I know that the the traditional name is what has stuck. But it's yes, just Sonic identities. I'm using all these other words to describe it that it probably also need to be unpacked. But But yeah, it's It's the voice of the station.
Toby Ricketts
Everything that's not like music, ads, or talking. But what kind of imaging basically, doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Excellent.
Chris Nicholl
And collectively, I think on a lot of radio stations, rightly or wrongly, I, you know, there's not, let's not unpack that. Let's not get into that debate. But rightly or wrongly, it's often the thing that takes other than music, it's the thing that takes up the most amount of time on the station and commercials, has commercials. You know, you're looking at this as the radio imaging is the thing that talks to the listener the most. And so, it's incredibly important.
Toby Ricketts
And, like, Why do stations use it? If it's incredibly important, like, do you know? Sure? Yeah. Like, what, why? Why did they go down that route? And not just have the DJs and the music?
Chris Nicholl
Yeah, I think that some of that is a great question. I think there are opportunities for the presenter to say certain things. But it's also an opportunity to do and say things that you might not want your presenter to say. That could be a commercial message. Or it could be that you don't want the presenter to spend all their time talking about what's coming up, you know, and what other things are happening on the radio station. So that's where you could use radio imaging, perhaps to serve that function, but also traditional Traditionally, when we all had, and I'm old enough to remember pre digital radios and cars, you had the dial and you would just be going around trying to find you just see that little analog dial We'll move along, you might not necessarily know that you're on 92.7, you, it'll just be on sort of 92. And you don't know how far up or down. And so it was quite important, I think in those days to say the name of the radio station and the frequency that you were on, and perhaps communicate what sort of music you're playing between every song so that people knew what was going on. Now, you know, perhaps it's less needed in the modern era. But a lot of radio stations still use these junctions between songs or before or after commercial breaks, or in the flow of even sometimes in the flow of music or around a presenter talking to get away some key messaging, which will often be station name, and do that in creative ways. Right? It's not just, you know, I'm sure we'll get to this later on. But it's not just the station name, there'll be some, some creativity that goes into that. And musically, or, technically, whatever.
Toby Ricketts
Arguably, I guess it could be more important these days, because it's a much more crowded marketplace than it was back in the day. And so to differentiate yourself,
Chris Nicholl
I think also you're you're up against. And again, I guess this is why I think a lot of people, at least not externally, but internally, you're talking about audio branding, or Sonic branding over radio imaging is sort of a name for it now, because we're not You're not just competing with the radio station. On the other frequency, you're competing with Spotify, you're competing with podcasting, and YouTube and all other forms of media. And because everything's a fragmented, and so niche, I think it's yeah, you're right. It's it's very important to still communicate what it is that you do and who you are. So that people who are listening who might have just dropped in for a moment aren't confused.
Toby Ricketts
And I think, as you said, with podcasting, I think that's going to play and I see it playing more of a big role in professional podcasts, like you'll listen to like Freakonomics Radio, or I don't know, This American Life, and they have their own distinct sounds these days, and like, they have the same musical beats at different points. So it's like, you're kind of in their zone, when you're listening to it, which which differentiates it? You know, it makes you a better customer of that podcast, doesn't it? Yeah. Yeah. And
Chris Nicholl
I think it's an example I think everybody brings up but uh, you imagine, you think that McDonald's jingle that data that now I remember when they rewrote that, and it came out, and it was a full song, and Justin Timberlake sang, you know, had a had a hand in there with the creative agency. But even now, I think that was that was probably about 20 years ago, they just use the whistles or the butter. But but but sometimes just notes, whatever it is, everyone knows that that's McDonald's, right? Yeah. And I guess that shows the power of audio branding. Generally speaking, radio doesn't work in quite the same way. However, there are elements that are the same. And so sometimes you don't need to hear anything other than a sound effect or a voice might not even say, you know, BBC Radio One is a great example, here in the UK, they have a lot of different voices, but you just need to hear them say, one, you don't need to hear anything else to know that. It's BBC Radio One. And I think that, that, you know, this, there's power in that you start to be able to, to get away with less, more or less is more. And that's the real beauty of, of well executed radio imaging. So it certainly follows that same pen. And so it is, as you say, important, because it does bring people into a world. And you're sort of creating clubs, I suppose. And familiarity, and all of those kinds of things that I think are really important. And, and, you know, because you've, you've brought up Freakonomics and you, you know that they do these things in the specific way, and same tones and beats and whatever else and in Insane Places. It's instantly recognizable to you, you recall it. And that's, you know, that's a repeat repetition thing that also plays in in amongst making good stuff. And I think that you're right, that is very important in radio, because you are wanting to create this community with what you're doing. And and there's also there's an air of professionalism to that. I think that I think you know, if it was more haphazard. If only one product is very haphazard, that's fine, you'd understand that that product is a haphazard product, and that's its brand but if anyone else has has it as well, you start to get confused. So I think it's what a lot of people are quite laser focused on a journey and a sound and, and having it have this home in this community.
Toby Ricketts
Cool. Before we go any further, I'll play some of your work so that people can got to listen out for what we're talking about and nasty website by the way I think government you're on that brand new so hearing brand new stuff from from Chris's website with effects.com This is the CHR showreel off the front page
Unknown Speaker
thr DC sound like this
Unknown Speaker
is pretty cool
Chris Nicholl
Charlie xes selects the best song ever. Raising
xes FCX selects the ultimate playlist to soundtrack the big moments in your life. BBC sounds like 99.9 Vegas Chicago
Toby Ricketts
don't say nice combination. You can see the full thing on the front of the station there I'm gonna play a country one as well just show a bit of difference between the two
Unknown Speaker
your station could sound like JMG was number one for new country
Toby Ricketts
had cut out of that one, some great work there. It always sounds like imaging has got its own kind of sound itself in a way like it's it sounds like exciting and Sisley and like it's been compressed to the wazoo. Do you want to talk us through the like this the way it's come to that sound? Like, is there a competition for ear drums, like on the waves and you're trying to win it at all costs?
Chris Nicholl
I think that's definitely a perception. Yes. And I think that that's a you know, there's there's into technical, you know, music and advertising. And in podcasts, and even videos on YouTube and stuff. There's this thing about the loudness war that's been going on for a long time. And there are various measures without delving too far into it that govern what's allowed. Yeah.
Toby Ricketts
If people want to, if people want to, like go down a rabbit hole with that just search like the loudness wars on YouTube. And you'll find so much info about like, how compression has just changed the face of music and radio and lots of different things. But yeah, I digress, and
Chris Nicholl
also a lot about our listening habits and what it does psychologically to people. And and, yeah, so there's certainly a lot of guff on that, and you could lose yourself, as I said, it's a rabbit hole. But I think in radio, there are no rules and regulations yet that govern how loud you can be. And because of that, unfortunately, there can be a tendency to play into well, I need to make things as loud as possible, I need to compete with what's going on. But I think interestingly, yes, the stuff that we played is, is quite compressed. But actually, if you were to pull up the, you know, an alleyway face meter, again, try not to get too technical, it's actually still fairly dynamic in comparison to other things that are happening, right? Yeah. Yes, imaging certainly has this loud sound, and it's meant to sound exciting,
Toby Ricketts
and kind of edgy, it's got like an edge to it. You know,
Chris Nicholl
I was always taught very early on many, many, many moons ago, when we knew each other as young men, that the idea really is to create excitement, and to be bigger and more more edgy, then the brand itself. So you use some of these technical tools, compression and whatnot to make it sound a bit more exciting and sexy, I guess. Yeah. And you want it to leap out of the radio, because if someone has the radio, or you know, it's something that was told to me by an old boss of mine, and when I was in working in New Zealand, Christian Boston, he said to me, if someone's got the radio down quite quietly, you want the imaging to really kind of jump out just that little bit louder. So if you've got something's happening and turn it up, and so I guess I've just applied that mentality. But I think also there's this degree of, you don't want to listen to I mean, by all means, go and dissect and listen to the many minutes of reels that we have on the website, but it's not built to be listened to. In that way. It's meant to serve in between jobs, and
Toby Ricketts
I find it I find it quite fatiguing to listen to like on good monitors or headphones as it as it should, because it's like, it's like mainlining you know, castor sugar, like, it's just too much A little bit I noticed between songs and everything, so I've taken my head off to working with it all day as well, there must be some like silence breaks that needed we just sort of go into a quiet room and just rock backwards and forwards a little bit.
Chris Nicholl
A lot of become the matrix is a lot of I can make this thing without listening to it. Right I've made and now I'll listen to electro Yeah, that's interesting. I know when certain things and then just listen for the end. Yeah.
Toby Ricketts
I mean, I do the same thing with my voice stuff. How I can edit it without looking at it. You know, you get very good visual. Looks like you know, yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. I know, I did that take three times I can take them out, etc. So speaking of voice, you need voices in imaging? Generally, there's the voice free imaging, probably not because it needs to communicate some kind of language, doesn't it to get into the listener? Yeah,
Chris Nicholl
I think they just step back to that McDonald's idea. There are stations that do have like a sonic logo, or a jingle package they've had for years, decades, maybe. And so they can get away with just, you know, whatever. Their logo was just played with a few notes. That does exist, but I think a majority of radio stations have followed fashion too much and perhaps have changed too many times to have that in their back pocket. Yeah. So
Toby Ricketts
as the as the the victim of the voice has been cut from voicing a major network, it feels like changing every two or three years.
Chris Nicholl
Yeah. But I think I think you know, it is imperative for most stations. And you know, to go back to that example, I quoted before about BBC with Radio One, they can just say one now and people Narcos Radio One. Cool. That's not to say they don't I mean, they do still say you'll get usually BBC Radio One might be one BBC Radio One or whatever, you get some sort of combination of it. But they can get away with less than they want to. But it still needs a voice. Right? So yeah, you're right. It is important and you do need one or more.
Toby Ricketts
It used to be the day that like you did have like a voice that was the sound of something like I'm thinking of like John Sweetman in New Zealand hears the voice of like classic hits or something for just for like an institution, you just hear His voice and be like, Oh, it's a classic hits guy. Yeah, have you seen a move away from that? Where it is more of a potpourri of of either onstage or offstage voices? And are they changing quite regularly? Or are they still sticking with that kind of consistent sound?
Chris Nicholl
I think it really depends on the brand. And I think that a station like when I was in New Zealand at ZDm, I think we change the voice once or twice and I was there for six, seven years. We had a we had a consistent voice, but we added or removed other voices from that. Similarly, when I was at at Capitol here in the UK, we had one voice guy called Howard Ritchie who just was power, massive power. And he'd been on the station for so long that it's almost like if you take him away, you're taking away the identity of the station. So we would add in other voices around him sort of supporting team and we would change them occasionally. But then you look at a station like radio one or TCM UK, they have there's a multitude of voices going on there. And it's more about those stations, reflecting younger audiences, much younger audiences than perhaps something like capital, although I don't think that those that capital would like to hear that. I think they they would say they're aiming for the same audience. But I think that younger folk don't necessarily care about one person talking at them all the time or talking with them all the time, they got lots of friends. So they used hearing lots of voices. Whereas a station that is more of a classic hits format, or as easy listening format, might have one or two very solid, consistent voices that just are there over time and become a warm friend because that brands music is and that its personality or station ality is an old word that I remember from my broadcasting school days, you know, which is the personality of the radio station is such that you want that. So you keep you know, so a lot of the lot of the choices feed into that wider idea of who is the radio station? And by that, I mean, if you had to boil your radio station or your brand down to one being one person, who is that person, and what do they like? And then you'd reflect that by your choice and voices or voice or what have you.
Toby Ricketts
And I guess Yeah, so the gender and age of the person that's going to be dictated by the the sort of it's going to be appear of the target audience effectively, isn't it? Yeah, correct. Yeah,
Chris Nicholl
I would say that one thing I will say is, you might be you know, like my She probably killed me if she was in the house. And she's not. So I can say, my wife is a voiceover artist and she's in her mid 40s. Yet she's voicing for a station that's much younger. So I think it also comes down to the tone, you know, you might, you might he might be older, you might be young, but you might have a voice that is either before or beyond your years and therefore suits
Toby Ricketts
totally, like a character. Yeah, correct.
Chris Nicholl
Yeah. And I think the beauty of that is, with with bigger scripts in, in radio imaging, I will get on to this. And but it was radio imaging being what it is, sometimes you have one word to say, sometimes you will have 30 words or more to say, and something slightly more long form. But a lot of the personality will come out in the long form stuff. And so you're able to develop their character, as you say, and that spills into other things. And you learn how to say one in a youthful way. Right old way? Yeah, like,
Toby Ricketts
yeah,
Chris Nicholl
I guess that's the neck, isn't it? Ultimately, at the end of the day is learning how to be able to do that. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
yeah, absolutely. So how do what's the usual process for casting voices for imaging? Is it something that you do as the production company or just the station cast, and
Chris Nicholl
it can be a mix of both. We have been contacted by some people we've worked with who have just gone, we're looking for new voices as part of what we're doing, who would you suggest, which is great. The problem can sometimes be that our clients have a traditional way that they've worked in the past for selecting voices. So that can make it difficult because they're expecting to hear the same five people that are always used or whatever. But sometimes, they'll have already cast voices. And so we won't have have a choice, again, tends to fall into the same sort of roster of people that you would usually hear when we have the opportunity to go a little bit more, not off piste. But certainly, we have more control over, you know, what the sound is going to be we've been given slightly more rain will look for voices anywhere in everywhere, I think, think Long gone are the days where you had to be a dedicated specialist at Radio, women. I mean, there is a neck to it. But it's it's coachable. And it is sometimes nice to work with fresh voices who don't necessarily fit the traditional imaging mold. Because you are either able to beat out, catch the mistakes early or the the tropes, the cliche styles of managing voicing early and kind of work, to move a voice away from them, or fresh like I sometimes find. We did. We just did a podcast branding package, actually for a football club, here in the UK. And it was quite good, the client had written a really great a really great script, you know, and then being people in the radio industry as well, you know that they sort of have a good command of how to write a good script, so is excellent to work with. But also they'd selected a voice that was perfect. And it just all came together. It was one of those moments where I don't know if we'd have done a better job of selecting it was just it just sounded so good. And but that voice I had never worked with never heard of before. And it's so refreshing. And I'm not so sure that this person had done a lot of traditional radio imaging before too. But it's, we didn't direct the session, unfortunately. But they delivered some really excellent stuff that was just a little bit more. Not informal, but it wasn't. It wasn't stagnant. It wasn't cliche, it just it just, it just had this lovely sort of natural feel to it. And it worked brilliantly. And I don't know the voiceover style was meant to be very over the top English movie trailer voiceover. So even when you you're taking the mickey out of that sort of voiceover style. I mean, you you instantly fall into a pattern that works. But it was just really fresh and nice. And I think there is a certainly a desire from us as a company. And I know from some of the other companies in our space to work with fresh talent and not work with the same four or five people. So I think we I have put out casting calls before. And unfortunately, we've not been able to go as far as we'd like on those casting calls. But you find some really excellent people when you're doing that. And hopefully you ever worked with them on another job that comes forward. But yeah, I think I think regardless of someone's experience, I think there are people out there that are looking for new You voices that are not the same. And the problem is once you get yourself an imaging gig and you become established, everyone wants you, which is great for the person that's got that gig. But it can be difficult for other people to find a lay again and get started and doing some stuff.
Toby Ricketts
Exactly, yeah, I imagined you would have seen like some trend in the industry towards sort of inclusivity and diversity, as well, because that's been definitely a trend, you know, in the American market, especially in other markets for advertising. Yeah. And also like a lean towards that more, like you said, the more kind of relaxed style like not sound like most of the casting calls come through today saying don't sound like a traditional voiceover. We don't want like an announcer read. It's got a you know, sound casual and, and conversational, etc. And would you say that applies to imaging?
Chris Nicholl
I do think that yes, I think people don't speak in the way that sometimes the audio we hear, especially in radio imaging, even some of the stuff that we're making, now, which I think is quite modern and fresh, people don't necessarily speak in that way. But I think it definitely there is a big angle and push towards being more natural speaking, even more like the audience. If you go back to the 50s, in New Zealand, for example. And the voices were almost British listen to these archival broadcasts. But that's not how we sound, we hear this. Depending on on on who you're talking to a lovely or horrible accent. That's what we should be hearing, right? We should be hearing our own voices on in media. And I think it was one thing I will say about the UK, which I really love is I can turn on any radio station, and I will hear a plethora of accents, you know, from all across the country, all within one commercial break or on one radio stations piece of imaging. And that's great. And definitely, as you say, inclusive inclusivity is, is has increased massively, you hear or hear all sorts of different tones and styles. And that's great. And as it should be. Because that's what life is like when I walk out my door, I'm going to talk to people just like that. So, you know, I think it makes radio more friendly. But also just generally media and brands more friendly. Because they are all like real people.
Toby Ricketts
And totally. So say someone gets this gig. Oh, and I was gonna also say, Is it important that people have like an imaging demo? Or would you discuss them from like a commercial or just from the rent this the reels on their site?
Chris Nicholl
I would, I'd be happy to cast irrespective of hearing imaging, because I have an imagination, I can hear someone's voice and go call this person, regardless of whether there's coaching involved. You know, for example, we many, what, three years ago, when we were launching our construct product, which is like a production service thing for radio stations, we were looking for a voice for our hip hop, brand or format. And I just all of the hip hop voices that I were hearing were big, sort of traditional American voices that didn't sound like their audience, they didn't sound particularly fun and friendly. Albeit we wanting a voice with a bit of attitude. Because you know, hip hop can be certainly quite an aggressive musical format at times. But we ended up finding a guy in South Dakota of all places, who was a friend of one of the guys that that I work with, who's he's a hip hop musician. That's what he does. He's a rapper. And we're just like called, can you read some stuff, let's have a listen to it. And it was, his tone was great. We had to do a little bit of coaching and working to kind of get it, like perfect and how we wanted it. But he just had this he had a sound his voice that we just couldn't find anywhere else that we got excited about. And I think that, you know, I definitely will listen to demos, irrespective of imaging being in there. And just is there a call tone here? Can I hear that this would work? Do I have a feeling about it? And I think that that's how a lot of casting works generally, anyway. Yes. They're looking for a specific thing. But if they have three voices that sound like that specific, whatever the specific sound there after they have three voices that meet the criteria, they're going to go on a feeling. I feel like this one's better or whatever. It is an unhelpful to have an imaging demo though because I think there are plenty of people in this industry that unfortunately don't have imaginations and they want someone they know has already done it before. So it makes their life a lot easier to just go here's the script reader done. Unfortunately, and and and I know there are people out there that will do imaging demos for people. We have done it before for a few voices. But I'm sort of I'm not sure I, that's the right way to go about it. I know we enter into a chicken and egg scenario where you want an imaging demo, but you don't want ever fake one.
Toby Ricketts
How do you get the work to get the work? Yeah,
Chris Nicholl
it's tough. Yeah, it is tough. But I think that's it comes down to relationship building, like anything doesn't. I can think of a few people I've worked with in the past, who haven't done imaging before, but we've just been chatting, and then suddenly, our Do you know what I've got? I mean, there'll be perfect for your voice, let's do it, and then leads to another thing. And another thing, and you know, a couple years down the road, they've done quite a lot of stuff. And bam, there's an imaging demo. Yeah, yeah. It's a long game. And I think, yeah, it is a long game. Yeah. So But equally, I know of people that have just gone out and got an imaging demo made and have walked straight into work. So it's, it's a really tough one. I hate to advise people either way. Because if but my personal feeling is, again, feeling is that I don't need to hear an imaging demo to know if it's a voice that I want to work with.
Toby Ricketts
So say people get their gig, what kind of things happen, what should people expect in a session, because I'm always surprised when I've done a few, like, especially when you're imaging something from the ground up, there's a lot of stuff to record, because your recording every permutations, pages and pages, and not just that, but like many versions of the same word, you the station, you know, you've got to, you've got to find a lot of new ways and different ways to say things in case they need it. So, you know, talk us through what goes on in an imaging session.
Chris Nicholl
Sure, yeah. So you'll have, you know, assuming you've got pages of stuff that's going to be long, you know, could be an hour or more of saying, very few words, but lots of times. And it's very much all bullet point, in my mind is when you know, when when I'm writing a script of imaging stuff, there are specific phrases and sayings that need to be said. And they're, they're constructed in specific ways. So for example, you'll have the station name, I don't know, let's say the stations called Yellow, I'm looking at yellow behind me. So you know, yellow, so you're gonna have to say, yellow five or six times, and even then you might not have said it, right. And you just got to keep saying it until the producers like, yeah, that's, there's a good one there, say it more like, you know, draw the O out of that yellow, or shorten that up yellow, whatever it might be. And there'll be that coaching and direction. And the tape will just roll the whole way through, you know, the amount of times I've done sessions where I've had someone say the station name 50 times, and ended up picking the first one. But you've, you've had to sort of work through a journey to discover what's possible with the voice as well, because it's an instrument really. But then, you know, from there, once you've said the station name, once, then you know, you've got, you've got that one in the bag, you've done, your 50 takes and there's one in there, that's perfect. You might then have to say versus yellow. It's through that process again, on yellow. And once you've kind of got the permutations of yellow, said, then you're looking at with, with her with Toby with Chris with lights with whatever it is. So then you've got to think about okay, so now I'm saying new words, but they need to work with old words that I've already said. So yellow, with Toby, so you have to think okay, with Toby, how many different ways can I say that, but when it's clipped out of that session, and put after the station name, will it work, because you're effectively creating building blocks, as opposed to saying it out loud, you know, the whole way through every time. And actually, you know, in reality, you know, those 50 yellows, maybe there's 50 versus yellow and 50 on yellows, maybe two or three are selected, and we'll be I tend to cut out of sessions, my favorite bits and save them separately in a sort of a database. And then I'm able to construct what I want to say with their voice, rather than having to get their voice in every five minutes to say specific phrases. Yeah. And so it becomes a almost like a toolkit database voice to use. But I will say that I have been in every job I've had, even though I might have the perfect take of yellow with Toby. If I've got a script that has something that comes after the with Toby like, on Saturday nights at seven. I'll still get the voice to say yellow with Toby on Saturday nights. from seven, and if they do a great tape, I'll use that tape. But if not, then I know I can go back and cut my favorite bits in and create the perfect read. And I think that that is the reason that the industry is gone. It sits in that way. And the reason imaging works in that way is because radio is an extremely last minute medium. So, you know, I'm going to probably find out today that on Friday, a client needed something, the client, it's not because we didn't deliver it, it's because the clients gone. Shit, I haven't requested that thing I needed on Friday, and I needed it yesterday, can I have it now. And we're not going to have time to contact the voice, get them to record, we're going to just have to make it. So I think that there's that sort of sense of immediacy and radio, that we can turn things around quickly. That means that, you know, the sort of industry has gone to that way where you create almost a database. And and I would say on that, I don't know if we if if we want to go too far into this. But I would say on that what you would tend to do with imaging is either do a buyout for a slightly higher rate, or you would do a license, your license your voice for a period of time, right, depending on the market and the size of the station, and etc, etc. Because if it's a small internet station, good luck. Yeah, say, if it's like a larger station that's broadcasting to millions of people, you'll be able to get a license, certainly.
Toby Ricketts
And how do they differ? So a license is basically a yearly fee, as long as my voice is the voice of your station in any way, then while you're paying me you must pay X Yeah, yeah. And then
Chris Nicholl
that could be, it may be that the agreement is something like and we have a few like this, where it's like, there's a fee monthly fee, you can have a page read every month, if you want. But if not, doesn't matter, use it or lose it. But if at the end of 12 months, you don't want to renew, you have to take my voice off the radio station. So there there are scenarios like that. But equally as my wife was trying to get into it. And I know lots of voices do that there's been smaller little stations or one off jobs, where it's a there's just a fee for this thing. And it will, you know, will cost you whatever the price is for this page. And that will be
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, yeah.
I mean, then that's kind of fair enough. If it's an it like you're saying internet station with like, 500 monthly users like it's it's such small fry that it's like, you know, it's not there's no economic model. That works. Yeah, you were going back to saying about like, you know, making stuff out of work parts. Ai voice is a recent addition to, you know, the world. Have you heard of, I mean, have you heard of any production departments or anything using those tools to sort of get things they otherwise, you know, they need the voice to voice them? They're not available? So let's just make it with this AI model. We've,
Chris Nicholl
I've not, and we haven't done it? I think there are there are two problems there. The first problem is, will the quality be right? And and the second problem, which is arguably more important is what's the legality around that, like, you know, I can record a session with you. We forget a word happens. Can I just Yeah, totally. Can I just I'll just upload the session and model it and I'll say it myself, and then it's done. But I think I mean, that's poor form of people are doing that, because I think most voices will go No problem. I'll just say that one thing, it's not a big deal. If it's lots of stuff, yeah, you know, pay for the session. Sorry, you forgot a bunch of stuff. But I sort of also Yeah, I think it's it's such a, or it's a tricky place to be. You know, my opinion on AI is that, you know, scary for a lot of people, us included, you know, we could all find that we are out of work. However, I think the people that know how to leverage and use the technology in a smart and creative way will be successful. So we do use a lot of AI tools, but we don't use AI tools for replacing the performances of real people
Toby Ricketts
and use it for creating new effects. And yeah, correct.
Chris Nicholl
And one thing I will say the one thing we have done with it is we had a job come in for a station and needed it to sound like a 90s house record with a preacher. And it were just we're finding it really difficult to kind of find the voice and to get the sound and also we didn't have the budget for it. So we used an AI tool to create this preacher men sort of not American,
Toby Ricketts
basically like a sample but you wanted to accustomed to
Chris Nicholl
effectively created our own sample using but there was a performance involved in that ultimate I performed it. But you know, the performance was key, you know, and if someone could have performed that better, than we'd have got that person to perform it, whatever. So becomes, as you say, it's an effect. Yeah, using it for an effect rather than replacing an entire industry or an entire person, because in that particular piece, we still had the station voiceover, doing station for sofa bed. So I think, yeah, there's a lot of legal ramifications for replacing voiceovers and using this technology. And I do think, ultimately, although it can be very convincing, looking at some of the scams that are out there using AI technology, I think people want to be interacting with other people. And when you listen to a radio station, or you are on holding on hold on phone, dealing with an automated thing, you know, it's a robot, you want it to be a person, or at least sounds so convincing that it's a person. And so I think that AI is not there doesn't replace people and human interaction, human connection. So I think there'll still be a big need for it. And I'm not aware of anyone using AI tools to replace voices in our space, or in eaten in. Like, just generally, the creative industries space.
Toby Ricketts
I have heard, I have heard of it happening in Australia, like, interesting. Andrew Peters, who's the one of the hosts of the Pro Audio suite, they did an episode about how he was the voice of a major network. And they said, we've we, we've, we've got this digital voice. Now, that's not a person, so we don't need you anymore, which is fairly blunt and brutal. But they might have a backlash. Who knows? Like it's, you know, it's people have got who've got good voices and know how to intuit things are hired for that reason. So maybe there's an X factor that they don't realize they'll lose until it's gone. Who knows?
Chris Nicholl
I wonder if you think about some singers and musicians who release sample packs right of light. So if they're a singer, obviously, it's samples of them singing things or, you know, a great guitarist might it really sample pack of this style of playing guitar. And I see AI as perhaps being a tool in a voiceovers sort of skill set of sure hears my voice modeled by AI that you can license directly from me and use and but if you want premium service, you'll get me to do a session if
Toby Ricketts
I feel like that's, that's the model that's evolving. And that that is happening as we speak. Like there was, you know, their voice models that was like only fans for voiceovers to use my Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I'll say whatever you want
Chris Nicholl
my voice get me to say whatever you want. But I think that that, you know, in all seriousness, I think that that is probably where we will all end up. Even Even people who produce things for radio stations, it will be okay. There'll be tools that I can use to create, it will make me more productive, but it won't necessarily replace me. Now, I know that voiceovers will feel that they can be replaced. And I totally get that that could be the case it could be. But if you are able to utilize that as a stream of income, then people will probably come to Toby for Toby's AI voice.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, yeah. Okay. Hopefully, we can only hope. Yeah, well, should we dive into like, showing people what a imaging session kind of sounds like in terms of giving different options for different lines. And that kind of imaging sound like, like I said, I've had, I've been the imaging voice for a few stations. And there's kind of a certain place that you have to put your voice, at least for the traditional imaging sound that we've been talking about the kind of balls to the wall. exciting thing. And there's also the thing, like, and I've, this is kind of geeking out of it, but there are some voices, or certain like approaches to voices, which compress really well, and others that kind of don't. And it's I've never quite been able to crystallize why that is for some voices, they can press really well.
Chris Nicholl
It's all about dynamic range in the deliverer. If the voice has a very dynamic delivery, it can be difficult to it's not impossible to
Toby Ricketts
control with a compressor. Yeah, sure. Yeah. CPU doesn't like you because
Chris Nicholl
you're loading up 500 instances of ligands to kind of flatten it out. Yeah. Voices just have this rounded delivery that is consistent, makes it a lot easier to make them seem seem bold and yeah, and
Toby Ricketts
self compression. I've heard it where you can kind of use your voice to kind of you kind of like by using the muscles in your voice. You can kind of push push the voice you know, and make it like quite flat like it's like it's had a first layer of compression or anything
Chris Nicholl
It's not like spewing. Exactly.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. I will hopefully we can get close to that. And this without me actually obscuring everywhere. You and we've got it, we got a demo script here. I'm just going to put it on screen there. Hopefully, you can see that. And yeah, I'm just gonna hone into it. What genre should we start off with? To say,
Chris Nicholl
Well, why don't we start with the genre that says actually is sort of, you know, it's like an easy listening station, you know, we talk instead of female skew. You know, probably sort of mid 30s to early 50s. sort of thing.
Toby Ricketts
Nice a nice.
Chris Nicholl
So, so, so warm, inviting, but not I don't think it needs to be big smiles. I think it needs to be a hint of friendliness to the delivery. But again, I like to say, do a big smile when you're saying things but don't necessarily try to like you know, like I'm smiling while I'm talking to you and I think that comes through in the sound of my voice. But I'm not necessarily going so far as to laugh after everything that I'm saying. It make it sound cheesy. Yeah. So it's just trying to reflect that warmth and energy while being happy
Toby Ricketts
cool, Okay, nice. I'm gonna do the first four lines and I'll give you like an ABC on each of them me personally works works quite well on sessions all right.
It's work paths. Bay easy. Bay easy. Bay easy. On Bay easy. On Bay easy. On Bay easy. This is Bay easy. This is Bae easy. This is Bae easy. Good times. Sounds like this. Good Times sound like this. Good Times sound like this.
Chris Nicholl
Yeah, so my, my instant thought is, as we're sort of getting towards the end of that you started to get a little bit more actually quite like the slightly more intimate sound. But I wonder if it's almost too much enunciation. Like they the words I think easy almost like one word. Yeah. Right and capitalize on the on Basie and that this is very easy. I think the bay easy wants to be a little bit more linked. But I'm okay with the joining words not being but I think with good times sound like this again, let it roll through. Don't worry so much about that diction between the times and the sound.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, sure. So like read through the grammar a little bit
All right, let's give it at least given Alicia Basie be easy. Be easy. On BZ on Basie. On Basie. This is Basie. This is Bae easy. This is Basie Good Times sounds like this. Good Times sound like this. Good Times sound like this. Good Times sound like this.
I hate when you do a take and you realize that you've gone against the direction you were just given.
Chris Nicholl
That for me, is much nicer. All I would want to do in a traditional session would be like, bang on the tone, loving the warmth and stuff. But we just love a slower option. Which is difficult because you don't want to break it up too much. But just simply bring the pace down a bit.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. I say everything slower. So instead of like,
Chris Nicholl
just jointed not like this
Toby Ricketts
is PE easy. Yeah, slowing the whole thing down. This is a easy, like, yeah, you
Chris Nicholl
got it. Yeah, you're looking to not break it up. But still. Yeah.
Toby Ricketts
Cool. If we were doing a more like a format, more like BBC Radio One, or one of those edgier formats. And let's go to one of these, like, the weekend jam or the request show, we'll do a couple of those which are in that style. To try and sort of conjure that that energy and throw it through more energy at the mic. See what happens.
Chris Nicholl
Yeah, yeah. And I think yeah, it's going to be brighter, isn't it? It's going to be you don't necessarily need to smile quite as much because you want to be a bit cool. Or you don't want to be unfriendly. So it's, it's that you know, I'm smiling way too much for it. You just want it to be sort of, it's sort of a half side smile rather than a full. I'm really happy about what I'm saying.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, cool. All right. Well, give it a go and get your feedback afterwards.
The request show the request show the request show, weekends, weekends, weekends, the weekend, the weekend, the weekend.
The weekend jam, the weekend jam, the weekend jam clipping over there. Apologies listeners, I think you
Chris Nicholl
can go two directions with us. And I think you could either go, depending on the style of the youth brand, you could either go like more up. So from where you've gone slightly more up and a little bit more energetic, or you can come down and be I'm even cooler and don't care. Yeah. I think let's go up a little bit more and be a little bit more like Yeah, I'm pretty excited about this thing. I liked that the diction wasn't absolutely perfect because it's natural. So yeah, I'd love to hear it slightly more sort of upbeat. Not like you're getting you're not happy. You're just like, yes, the request show like I'm talking to my mates. Yeah, thing.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. Cool. Awesome. And it was it was interesting. I just realized that because I could hear myself clipping in my headphones. Like, I didn't project as much which affected the performance. And that's something like for talent to note that, like, if you ever hear like, it's good to like, give yourself like 12 dB of headroom, so that you can go there if you need to, like in terms of projecting, I just thought I'd mentioned that while I was in the moment. All right. So we'll take it up a bit. And I'm gonna turn my game down a little bit. All right. The request show the request show the request show. Weekends, weekends, weekends, the weekend, the weekend, the weekend. The weekend jam, the weekend jam, the weekend jam.
Chris Nicholl
Yeah. And in some brands would push even further, I wouldn't I personally think that that's kind of on the money. And what I like about that is, you know, especially with a lot of these younger brands, you might be chucking in samples of songs and things that they're the audience is familiar with. I hate pop cultural references, because we're not talking Family Guy and Simpsons drops, which is a trope, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, like that it's recognizable to the audience, and then to have the voice stick out with a kind of, you know, yeah, you know, this thing's happening. Cool. Yeah, I think that's quite powerful. And if you'd have taken it down, and be much more kind of, I really couldn't give a shit.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. Which is like some of the BBC stuff, you really hear that coming coming through. Absolutely. And that
Chris Nicholl
works for a format, like a youth format. But it can also work quite nicely for a rock format. But again, it will vary. There's a station here in the UK, absolute radio, and they have comedian guy who's like very over the top, bah, blah, blah, blah, terrible imitation of his voice and accent. You know? So again, it really depends on the what the personality of the brand is. So we could we've done what we've done that might not suit any of those stations, they may have something else in their mind entirely. Yeah. And I know that actually. So I was gonna say, you know that like, for example. My my first job that said in, we were very much we started leaning more down a comedy angle, and we had like a female voice over Georgia who was quite cool. And a vote that sort of
Toby Ricketts
Scots very cool. Yeah, had like the smoothness. Yeah,
Chris Nicholl
it was cool a bit of attitude than we used to go through, who was just, he was there to say the snarky stuff and deliberately snarky and deliberately stuff that's a bit sarcastic. And he had that tone. That sounded sarcastic, but we would never direct him to sound cool, more upbeat, because that wasn't what we were after. So it can, you know, whereas that capital, with three voices in the brief was just sound call, you just need to sound shut hot all the time, everything we do, whether we're giving away a car, or we're giving away a car mat, it needs to sound like the best thing ever. And that was what we would do. So it can really vary.
Toby Ricketts
It's worth noting as well for talent that might get themselves into a imaging session. And even just from doing those four lines in quite a high P like, and you say, like I probably would have been produced further at some stations, is very fatiguing. Like, you know, I wouldn't do that for more than 20 minutes without saying like any a 10 minute break. So don't be afraid to ask for breaks when you're doing it because the temptation is to keep pushing it and at that point, you will be useless at about 40 minutes and lose your voice for a couple of days. So don't be afraid to to ask for breaks.
Chris Nicholl
And I think the only thing we probably didn't touch on there was in you know, seasoned professional like yourself wasn't doing it. But some voices can fall into this pattern patterning. I'm saying a thing. Now I'm saying another thing. Now I'm saying a third thing. Now I'm saying a fourth thing with the same inflection and that is something to really be aware of As you want to be mixing, how do you mix the inflections and the tones up while still being in whatever the box is that you're being directed to hurt? Absolutely, that is that's hard. Yeah, absolutely warrant that that's a difficult one. And it takes experience. But I also think it takes someone who is directing you to spot it and say, Hey, can you just try an inflection that's more like X or Y.
Toby Ricketts
X, like I was trying to, like, visualize it. Like you have like sentences that ended up and sentences in the middle, and then once and then down. And like, if you actually, like, you know, you imagine it is like singing notes going up and down. And it's just a case of coming from new shapes that you you've always, but yeah, it's a very good skill to learn as a voiceover artist. Cool. Well, we are pretty much out of time, but it's been fantastic to chat and get really, like surgically precise on this, this fantastic genre of audio branding. I'm gonna call it from now on Thank you. needs every brand,
Chris Nicholl
as you say it to clients, like I want in the gym. Yes, yeah. Yeah. What do ya branding?
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, cuz I did have a question in there about what like, what's the difference between sound design, audio branding, music production, etc. But I guess they're all variations on the theme.
Chris Nicholl
Yeah, totally. I think probably, if you are not from a radio background, music production, sound design, audio branding, makes more sense, Sonic identity. All of that makes more sense. If you're from a radio background, it's radio imaging. And, you know, we find that depending on what client we're talking to, will depend on what language we use. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. It's been very good. I'm glad I
Toby Ricketts
can help. Yeah, no problem at all. If you want to check out more of the work and I encourage you if you want to get into the genre, it's all you have to listen to what's out there right now to hear what's expected. And like if you can do it like that's, you know, if you have a if you want to make a demo, in your studio, then listen to the sub. It's hard to put together I will say that making your own image and demo almost impossible. That's why there are experts like like Chris in this world.
Chris Nicholl
With these make sure if you do make it you make it an imaging demo, we'll get an imaging demo made provide references to the person making it so that you don't end up with something that doesn't sound like where the fashion is currently.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you can find Chris's work at with effects wizzfx.com and encourage you to do so but it's been wonderful to have you on the podcast. Thank you for coming along very much. Very much enjoyed it.