An Interview with Armin, CEO of Bodalgo.com
/VO Life Ep 10 – Armin Hierstetter – The Bodalgo perspective
This month on VO LIFE I talk to Armin Hierstetter, CEO of Bodalgo.com – the largest online voiceover marketplace in Europe. Membership of Bodalgo has increased hugely during Covid, and the site is expanding rapidly. Armin is a colorful character and takes us on the journey of how Bodalgo was conceived, how people can succeed as online voice artists, and what the current issues facing the voice industry are; as well as;
How Armin got into the voice industry
How Bodalgo started (at Beerfest, or course!)
What is the difference between Bodalgo and the other voiceover marketplaces?
How do the jobs get sent out to talents on Bodalgo?
There are many people going for jobs on Bodalgo, is it still worth auditioning?
How does Bodalgo find VO clients?
How does voice hiring work in Europe?
How important is writing a good proposal on Bodalgo?
Should voiceover marketplaces be responsible for deciding minimum acceptable charges for voice jobs?
What other tools are included in Bodalgo premium?
What are some future challenges the voice industry?
Should we be worried about AI?
What happened to voices.net?
What do you have planned for the future of Bodalgo?
TRANSCRIPT:
Toby Ricketts
Welcome to vo life brought to you by gravy for the brain, Oceania and hosted by me, Toby Ricketts. It's great to have you along. And this is where you can find really interesting chats between people in the voiceover industry who are doing big things, making waves. And I kind of thought leaders in the space and doing a series at the moment on the voiceover marketplaces, where job seekers go to find work and also where people, you know, go to find the best voiceovers in the world for their projects. And so I'm very pleased to introduce my good friend, and the CEO of bodalgo.com. Arman hische data that I say that right?
Armin
That was absolutely perfect. Thank you so much for having me. And hello to everybody from Munich in Bavaria, Germany.
Toby Ricketts
Fantastic. I do like Munich. I remember drinking beer there, which is probably not uncommon.
Armin
not uncommon, but it will be this year's again, no, Beerfest, no Oktoberfest because of you know what? And so we are all suffering a little bit here. So we get up here elsewhere, but I'm really looking forward if normality comes back. And we have the Beerfest again, because it's always a great thing to go to. Absolutely.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. Fantastic. Cool. So, bodalgo.com we're going to have a talk about the voiceover industry. We're going to talk about the website, where it's going where it is all kinds of stuff. So strap in. Firstly, and we've met at the one voice conferences, we've had a great time we've jumped on tables. It's a very fun time at the conferences. I am keen to know a bit more about your background. Where did you Where are you from? How did you get into sort of computer stuff and voice stuff? Like what's your kind of two minute potted summary?
Armin
Okay, so let's do the quick one. I was born in 1970, which makes me an old fart of 50 years or 51 years actually, I just turned. So now I grew up in a little town called Swan Dorf, which is in Bavaria, Germany, in the southern part of Germany. And by the age of 11, I came to Munich, and I was there, I had a friend who had a Commodore VIC 20. And he taught me to program. So this is where my programming background started. In school, we had a computer lab and I went there all the time, before school after school. And then I had my first job as a junior writer in a computer magazine. And I took over the programming section of that magazine. That was in 1990. And then after, after some stations at like, I was editor of penthouse magazine in Germany, and then I will had, I oversaw us titles in Germany. And I then I did a commercial for a colleague, he said, Oh, we have this commercial for FHM magazine, because we published that at that time, in 2004. There was, and he said, we need, we need a new voiceover for a commercial that we already have. It's just the copy that changed. And I said to him, Well, you you give me compliments on my voice all the time. So why not try me he was really desperate, it needs to be done, like within 24 hours, and he was afraid that there's hardly any budget like always, and that that he couldn't find the right voice and in that time, so I said, well, let's go to the studio and take me and if it doesn't turn out well then we still have an option you can go elsewhere. So I was a complete non talent at that time. We came to the studio and it was it was basically just two lines and it always ended with F h m mener zinsco. And I trained that in like driving in the car that all the time and the morale I think it sounds nice, it will be fine and there was the the director and he said well okay, I can hear that you're not a trained talent but to be honest with you if you just follow what I tell you will be a Bob's your uncle and and we will we will be fine. So that's what we did. And really, it took only like 1520 minutes and out I was of the studio and I thought yeah, I'm a voice over talent now. What What's next? And I wrote, I wrote to every agency I found I wrote an email and with my with my one spot that had him as a demo reel. Can you see how naive i i've been? So I sent them to there and and none of them even bothered to reply. And then something happens. That was like the turning point. I went online and searched for agencies and and I found online casting websites but people pay it's not pay to play. I always do this. It's okay to play.
Toby Ricketts
pee to play is a whole different kind of site. Yes, exactly.
Unknown Speaker
So
Armin
I went on a on a website. Like that, that was also in like 2004 2005. And I saw, they are also Germans, because it wasn't it was a website from Canada. I won't tell you the name. And actually was not No, it was a website from Colombia, I'm sorry, was from Colombia. I won't tell the name either. So I went on the website. So I had our German talents as well. And I wrote to one of them, and asking, Is it any good? And he said, Well, the jobs are really not that well paid. So he's not thinking that he will go ahead with the premium membership. But I thought, well, I'm a noob. Let's give it a try. With no training. So far whatsoever. Boy, was I completely misguided. But then I realized, okay, I need training, and I had my my coaching classes, and then things got better. And I booked my first jobs there. And I thought there must be something like that, but German for the German market, because as it was a Colombian website, there was many Spanish jobs and English jobs, but nothing for me and for the German guy with the glasses. So I was, but then I couldn't find anything that was, was was done in the for the German market. And I had the idea, like three years. And then and now we're coming back to the beer, right from the beginning. I'm sitting at the beer Fest in September 2007. And I'm sitting there and I, I start complaining again, about with with with some mates and said, I don't understand why nothing like this shows up, this will be so great. And that the Epiphany I had was like, nobody will do it, you do it yourself. And I had already three masses of beer, I already have that in me. So I was quite self confident. Off I went to, to my flat and started coding the very first lines of what later would become budongo. And this is the story in well, more than two minutes. But this is the story how, how I went from being a little kid in Japan to of writing my first code, having some jobs, and then doing good algo as a part time project to be to be honest.
Toby Ricketts
And so you sort of managed to fuse these two skill sets that you had, where you you've also mentioned in the meantime, you were you were developing as a software programmer or something like that, and then combine these two sort of likes.
Armin
Yeah, so I, I started with voiceover in 2004. And I had training and then in 2005, I would not say I was a seasoned pro, but I had my my my first little thing Medals of Honor, if you can say like that. And on the other hand, yes, I was programming but by 2004 or two sorry, 2007 I hadn't counted really that much for about like, a good 10 years really because I was because of my publishing job. I went from computer magazine then off to to, to, to to to other magazines, so I didn't count that much anymore. But when I saw when I coated the very first line of fidalgo but Doug is written in a language called PHP for all you programming aficionados out there, and but it's it's it was not P. PHP is not far away from another language called C and I knew c pretty well so jumping into programming the website was not that hard in the beginning but it then became a lot harder when you do Server Administration and all that stuff that only crazy people but who voluntarily. So yeah, it was quite a bumpy ride. Developing the website because also it was like the first big big project I I tried to achieve there completely by myself. I'm not sure if all the viewers do know this, but fidalgo is only three people and it's me, myself and I there is nobody else behind Okay, I have of course a few suppliers by now like hosting companies and so on and but um, yeah, so yeah, I combining the voice thing with programming and I studied marketing, so I was a bit savvy and now that the website is ready, how do I market it to the people?
Toby Ricketts
Absolutely. And you still have voiceover artists, you still do jobs or are you entirely fidalgo owner?
Armin
I have not I did after like one and a half years. I did my very first job again just a few weeks ago. But usually what I do is I reject jobs and when I say I reject them what I do is I quote such a ridiculously high price. That I hope that they will say we probably shop elsewhere but Sometimes, if they say, No, that's fine. And I'm god dammit.
Toby Ricketts
Exactly. Whenever you whenever you want to discourage work, it's it's never just say no, it's but you price
Armin
price it up because um, it sounds nice. It's like, oh, he doesn't want to work with us, but it's like, oh, he's too expensive for us, which is a completely different thing
Toby Ricketts
you've studied marketing, haven't you? So tell me and tell the viewers what is the difference with with algo? Like, I mean, there are a few big differences, but what do you see as the kind of big difference between the market versus other marketplaces that there are around the world and then but alga,
Armin
I think the major major difference is that a credit card will not get you on the boat, like a credit card by itself, you need to be a professionally trained talent. And when people sign up, their profile is not visible to the rest of the world, just visible to themselves and to me, and I bet each and every talent, and this is getting more and more challenging, really, because many noobs are coming in. But then also many people, for example, that do coaching with gravy for the brain. And, and they are very new to the market. And but they are well trained. So you're doing a great job out there. And then probably that you coaches as a coaching as well. So more and more people come up. And sometimes I struggle to to to to get through the pile, because it's so many and you have to listen to each and every demo of them to be able to judge is this professionally trained or not, because if it's not professionally trained, then I just delete the profile. And that comes to that point in a little bit. And so for people to understand when they sign up with fidalgo Oh, I would say with any online casting website, I think it's three things that they really, really need to bring to the table. And it starts with a flawless audio quality. And Toby you You would not believe how bad it is sometimes. And I and I don't mean this in a in a condescending way. I mean it in a way where people don't realize that their audio is not that great. This starts with like a background, his. If you're listening to your audio with just loudspeakers, each side on your table, there's, there's a good fair chance that you will not hear that because of the NBN noise that's around you all the time. So people really need to listen to the demos with headphones, like pts 770, Pro, wonderful headphones, but I biodynamic. I'm not getting paid to say that they are just awesome, great headphones, not fatiguing to your ear. It's great. It's wonderful. So you guys out there, listen to your demos with headphones. So you need to have flawless audio quality. And of course, your your recording your your voice, your read, needs to support the fact that you are a professionally trained talent. And this starts with like, if I hear a breathing in, starting in a demo, like I press play, and then comes I deleted, deleted because no voiceover should start with breathing. And a voiceover should start with Hi, this is arm and this is my demo reel, off you go whatever. And that you be there when you start your demo, you have to be there from the first syllable.
Unknown Speaker
You have
Armin
to the power needs to be there yet, like the engagement needs to be there. Like it sounds like basic things. But many people don't do that. And they they they they get they get deleted of fidalgo not for the other ones. I think the I don't say idiot of the North now. Now the guy in Canada will happily take your money. That's that's fine, but I won't. Because I think you need to bring bring that to the table. And then it's of course, the more technical things like Arctic, the proper pronunciation, articulation. Those things like right you, it's not been the read and then how great you're doing it read by itself but more technical things. It's like hold Deutsch the High German if you're not come to proper High German, you're out. And if somebody has not like, by it's difficult, more difficult that in the US because you have of course many accents all around the country. The same goes Of course for the Oceania and like different colors of English. So I'm a bit I have a looser leash there because it's a it's a bigger country, but in in Germany, for example, I'm much more strict about the like you You must not have an accent.
Toby Ricketts
So going back to the sort of technical things because I'm absolutely with you and I've done casting where you get like 100 demos and like I am like one of the first things I do is go through If it sounds like it's someone recording in a shower, or like in the dining room, it's like, straightaway, like, like, I don't get this, but how. But given that you like holding this kind of sword over people's heads, how do you account for like just maybe your preference versus kind of maybe changing industry standards because breath removal is kind of one of those interesting things where some clients say, leave the Brits in like, I like it sounds natural, I kind of like it. And but then there's the kind of, you know, full on commercial voiceover we'd sort of never leave it in. So do you worry about that you're getting rid of talents that through rules like that. Okay.
Armin
Then I'm the client the Bulava client and I say breathing in at the beginning of a demo is not acceptable. Boom, there you go. No, of course, it's a taste thing. But I think if a demo starts and and you hear like, yeah, it's now it's, I don't believe, I don't believe people have the time to listen to. All the time. I'm not talking about the breaths in between, of course, if you do like an audio book, you would never ever cut out the breath because people breathe while they're reading while they are talking. So so that would sound completely unnatural, but a demos a demo should start with your voice and not the way you breathe. And maybe that's a that's a preference that I have and maybe that's totally crazy, but for both algo let's say that's the rule. And but the other things like like the way people read and so on, I don't Oh, is it a high pitched voice a low voice? I would not of course delete a profile because
Unknown Speaker
the voice is too high.
Armin
I would not do that. But um and i would not do it for but going back to the technicals if there is background is there it's a no go. If this if you can hear room ambience. It's a it's a total Noga. If you if you hear if the miking is bad, you can Yeah, you can hear too much room. It's it's it has it has total lack of bass, or it has total lack of highs. And it's just really badly done, then. Sorry. Not good enough.
Toby Ricketts
Because I mean, like, and I say this to my students that when you do an audition on any of the voiceover platforms, you're not just advertising the fact that you can perform your advertising the fact that like, what you hear is what you get, like the clients are not thinking, Oh, this will be fine once they really record because you are really no, no, no, no, no,
Armin
absolutely. No, you're absolutely right. They'll tell you they will the client presses the play button. And whatever comes out of the loudspeaker is the quality they think they can expect from the real thing. Sometimes it's even like, let's say there's, there's a commercial, the commercial is only three sentences. Sometimes they get auditions where somebody reads, because it's only three sentences the whole spot without changing anything, because it's a it's a it's a client that posted already, like 150 jobs. So they know this is probably fair enough to to do it without watermarking when it tricks, and they come back and say awesome, perfect read. Thank you. We take it you don't have to send anything. Because it's it's okay. It's only an mp3 is 160 kilo kilobits, kilobits. But you don't hear that in the mix.
Toby Ricketts
resting on their phones these days, let's be honest.
Armin
Yeah, yeah. And even if it goes on, even if it airs on radio, like, Okay, if it's if it's FM radio, you definitely don't hear it, and they compress it at the radio stations and do tons of stuff with the sound. You don't hear that if that's just an mp3, but it needs to be properly recorded.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. So the biggest sort of point of difference you see is that it's kind of a selected group of people. It's not just sort of, you know, anyone in the world. The other sort of thing that about fidalgo, is that I mean, you have a monthly cost, there's no sort of annual fee option. And the business model is kind of different, isn't it? In terms of you don't take percentages of jobs? Yeah, of course. Yeah,
Armin
that's that's like from the financials, there are a few more differences load. Let's start. There's three plans monthly, half yearly, and yearly. Obviously, the monthly is the most expensive if you add 12 of those months together, the yearly would be much cheaper, like 25%, or something like that. Yes, but I want to offer them because sometimes the people want to jump in and out. Especially when it's for languages where they are not so many jobs. They just wait for one that are really interested in they know there are not many other premium talents they're fighting against, like we're talking like, finish all the Scandinavian languages, or some languages Africa, like it's why should they sign up for a year there's only like 10 jobs a year for them in the first place. So that's that and they Hidalgo only takes the premium membership fee, as I just said, and monthly is 2990 euros. This is all Europe prices I'm telling now, half yearly is 149 90 and yearly is 269 90. And apart from that, nothing, there is no add on cost whatsoever. There is no escrow fee, there is no managed services fee. There is, and the client doesn't pay anything like the plant just post the job. Because I don't, I don't see a reason. Could I could ask the client, like, let's say, Oh, we need a transaction fee or a processing fee of 29 euros per job? Well, I think job numbers would would drop because of that. And why would i would i do that in the first place. Because the client already brings the money to the table, the budget he has for the job, and the talents already paid using the service. So of course the talents deserve all the money of that jobs budget, of course, why would I funnel like basically any other platform, I believe now, funnel in their pockets. Hidalgo is based from the business model on the premium membership fee. And that's it, it's very easy. It's very transparent. a two year old understands that. So yeah, and I like it, and this one will never ever change.
Toby Ricketts
That's, that's good to hear. I was gonna ask whether, you know, you see it changing in the future. It's, I mean, it's really the only site that offers like a completely level playing field in terms of like, because how your algorithm like works and how it actually distributes jobs to voiceover artists, with the other major voiceover marketplaces, there's an algorithm that kind of aggregates the jobs and then sends out, you know, breadcrumb jobs to sort of like certain talents. And if you're a more, you get more of those breadcrumbs. But there's bad algo work when a job is posted, it goes to like everyone all at once. Is that how it works?
Armin
Yeah, so with algo has no tears, like some so many others are probably, basically everybody else. So there are no tears, everybody that is a premium member will get the job that matches him or her. And it goes out, let's say that there is an American Job, and the client doesn't know whether it should be female or male. So it goes for all them or non binary is included now as well. And so let's say on the three 2500 talents, not premium talents, in all premium and basic members fall into that, that that roster, so it's just a female, male, non binary, age group, young adult, or best ager. And so you have 2000 talents. And it takes about two minutes until those emails are sent out to all of those 3000. Now, the vast majority of the 3000 are non premium members. This is the way but I'll go Of course, advertisers, it's its service to the ones who would like say, wouldn't you like to try become a premium member, of course, and the premium members get a mail where they say, hey, there's a new job. If you think it's a good match, then you audition for that job. Everybody gets it basically at the same time, with one two minutes difference. So there's really no competition. Yeah, there's no unfair competition. And also, every time they send out the orders randomized, every time a job is sent out, it randomizes the order which talent gets it first, but it only takes a minute or two. So there is really no advantage to getting in first. Okay.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. Interesting. Because I mean, one of the things that I have, and I mean, we can talk about the sort of, you know, your recent success and how the site has grown. Because I went up when I see sort of see on fidalgo, it can be sort of disheartening sometimes to sort of get to a job, and like 10 minutes or 20 minutes later, and there's like 50 or 100 people that have already gone for the job. Do you think that that has like increased especially or the COVID like, have you seen an influx of new people over COVID? Yeah.
Armin
So as I definitely yes, there has been an influx of people. Fortunately, there also has an influx of jobs. But let me address the the the, the challenge with many auditions, it's like you can't have both. You can't have like exclusivity that you are like the only person in the world that that gets the jobs and also at the same time want to be able to audition for everything, which is what Prolog allows it allows you to audition for every job that matches your profile. So you can't have both and it yes, it is an issue and yes, there can be up to 400 auditions I have I have seen 400 auditions for one job well of course it's the best time jobs So what does the algo do to like, make this a little bit better? Well, first of all, I believe in a free market, if people really think, let's say, oh, there are already 200 additions, I don't give it any more job, well, then it balances it out by itself. But there are people that come late to the party, and they still audition and they get the job, it doesn't matter at all. You can't say it's a rule that says you have to be the first to audition to increase your chances of nailing the job, because the list presented to the client with all the auditions on top of the ones that auditioned last. And many people don't get this, I believe. So what is the reasoning behind that? Well, if the client, let's say the client comes to the page every two hours, then I don't want him or her to have to scroll down to get to the new editions they haven't listened to. That's why the new edition is on top of the list. So they're just go website, CR, five more new editions there, listen to them. Next, come in there again on top, and it doesn't have to scroll down and remember where he was very easy for everybody. And it takes the pressure out of the talent to be like, Oh, I need to be the first. Now you have all the time to prepare your audition, no need to hurry whatsoever. In fact, it could be that being one of the later ones is actually a good thing. But then again, there are people that go there all the time, like five times a day. And then it's not a good thing to be the last one because maybe they already identified on their way. Three or four talents they really really liked. So there you go. Now, the but yes, there isn't it is a challenge to have this many auditions, but it's built in the system. fidalgo wants you to be able to audition for all the jobs with no tears and no filtering whatsoever. While we have to match of course, the profile like gender, voice, age those things. But there is no other filter where they say, Oh, you already auditioned for 10 jobs. Now you can't audition anymore. I don't think that's that's a good way. But there is a way that might come in the future.
Wherever Dalgo says, okay, we are looking at the longest streaks of your membership. Like you're you're a member and a premium member for five years. And then you may have a benefit to a member that is only there for two months for special selected jobs where the client would have to pay to have like a job plus posting, well, then this posting only goes to 50 or 100 people. And these would be the people with the longest streak of their premium membership. Why would I take a thing like that as a filter? Well, because the ones that are the longest, well probably are the longest because they are successful with what they do with put algo. So I would assume that because of that they are probably very seasoned talents that know what they are doing like that. They are, I don't want one I don't want to say like they're the cream. But they obviously do something really, really well. And this is why it's all this is just like I was spinning this idea. I'm not saying suggesting in any way that this will come. If it would come it would only affect jobs where the client would have put big money on the table, I big money like 99 euros per job or 199 per job. So he only gets his job. To to those talents. The talents wouldn't pay anything, the talents just by their existence at fidalgo would be eligible for for those jobs or not. And because it changes all the time. This would be what it would shuffle. So but this is all just dumb ideas. Nothing is set in stone. And maybe after talking at now, one voice conference about this idea to too many talents, maybe at the end of the day said no, it's not such a great idea. after all. It's not set in stone.
Toby Ricketts
Fair enough. Do you get feedback from your clients? Being the job posters on the site that there are there's too much to kind of wade through and that they sort of struggled to get through like 400 auditions.
Armin
Yeah. Sometimes it is like that. I'm happy to say that the opening rate of additions is back to 75%. It dropped to 69% during COVID. And then I changed something in the system where a client only can see the offer the quote the price tag, once you listen to the demo, and boom, the opening rate went up 6% and it seems to be now stable at 75% which of course could be improved. Absolutely. But I think 75% is pretty solid. It's a it's a, I think a really good number. So, yeah, but yes, I, there are sometimes complaints. Not very often though. It's really like, two, three times a year maybe people that really like I can't use your site anymore because it's too many auditions. I think they get it. I mean, what are the what are the options, and especially as all are many, many, many, many of the auditions are really great quality because put algo beds each and every talent, they don't have to listen to crap. Like they would have to do with something like with voices.com voice 123 Fiverr. I mean, it's full of crap that they need to listen there sometimes, because they don't vet the talents and just look at the credit cards. And even the CEOs openly say that they want to be open to all sorts of voices. Yeah, well, okay. That's a different philosophy. And I think that the, the, the clients appreciate, yes, it's a lot, but it's a lot of great voices. And, and we appreciate that not every audition gets listened to the, we don't need to, to, to make things more rosy than they are. But um, 75% is a good rate. And, let's see, maybe have a few more ideas how to bring that.
Toby Ricketts
While we're on statistics, and talking about talent and jobs, I'd be interested to know roughly, like, what proportion of talent you have, that are kind of the German speaking, say, versus sort of, like, you know, American English, or like, what's the kind of spread, of course,
Armin
um, if I have my numbers that well, we have about 544 to 5000 in total now 45,000 talents from America, we have 1500 from Germany. So Germany, the, the English speaking market, like looking at the financials at the bottom line of Perdomo, and the job numbers to the English side of life has outgrown the the German side. And what I was started as a purely German website, the other languages came later. So So I would say that, that about 50% of the jobs that come in 45% of the jobs are for the English world. 30 are Germany and the rest is Italy, France, Spain. And then the rest, there's three major ones. English, UK, English, us, German, these are the biggest ones. Now these, these three are the biggest ones.
Toby Ricketts
And in terms of the job spread, like where most of your clients sort of base, do you have obviously started in Germany.
Armin
Yeah, it started in Germany. So Germany is where the the biggest, biggest time pool comes out of Germany. But there are many, like they did not only need German jobs, international companies, and they need all over the place. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
lots of localization. I noticed jobs coming up for a British version and American version, etc. Yeah, yes. Yeah. Cool.
Armin
It was always very difficult for me to get into the American market to make badaga known overseas. I'm not sure whether that is but um, I don't like the aggressive cold calling thing like having having 100 people that are cold calling people that don't want to be cold calls. And also, it's prohibited in Germany. I'm not sure about the US though. And yeah, I would like I would love to grow the client base in us. But apart from from the usual suspects in marketing, I have not found like if there is a great talent out there that has awesome marketing skills, and I'm talking to all you gravy for the brains and the YouTube channels, watches. If you are if you are really a marketing genius, and if you know the voiceover world, and know how to find attractive or attract clients, you drop me a line at aminata blogger.com. Wow, that was a cool commercial building. Right into
Toby Ricketts
there we go. Voiced by the man himself, Senator natural. Like I'm interested to know about, because like most of the jobs come through, through Europe, and in my experience, Europe has quite a different way of like people finding voices, for example, in the Scandinavian countries, it seems to be that, you know, clients go to studios to get something produced the audio production houses and they're the ones that find the voice generally. Well, they have their own in house rosters. It's that sort of how it has traditionally been before but the other one, is that still the case and a lot of European countries where the audio post production houses are the people who find the the voice actor.
Armin
Yeah, as I as I remember it from productions that I did long time ago. It's like you You want to let's say we create an ad. So we go to this film production company and said okay, we won't be you will do the shooting of the ad. And they will also then They will go to a studio and ask, Hey, what are the cool voices give all their go to an agency and say send us some cool voices. But usually it's the it's most of the time it's the studio, that the the audio studio or recording studio, that gives them a few samples of voices. And they source them from their own catalogue or they go to a to an agency. So this is how it used to be done in Germany, and I think all over the world. Now, with with the upcoming of online casting, we still have the agents, I would assume that they that they see that jobs numbers probably going down, but then COVID difficult to say I'm not sure about that, but they are still in existence. And I don't think they will go away because the top shelf brands that that have like they go to the top shelf film production companies. And usually those do not tend to go to online casting because they don't yet see that online casting is a really great option for them. They also want I think this more personal approach. And maybe the clients also want this more personal approach where they can sip their coffee or Prosecco in the recording studio and be there while the the talent is recording and all of that though, there's a it's more of an event. The whole thing here they feel probably a little bit like Celebes when they can walk into the studio and and see that talent they're recording, I really do believe that there is a little bit of and don't get me wrong, it is a cool thing. To to, to watch a production. And and also sorry, I completely get it no has done it. And they have they think they have full control, which sometimes, of course leads them to the client talking to the talent like, Oh, can you please read it faster, but make it sound slower? we all we all have been there. But of course, there has been a shift to online casting with COVID. There's no doubt about that. Because the people simply couldn't go anymore to the studios because the studios were there because of COVID. And I believe that but Agha did a great job without like tapping my own shoulder. But I think badaga did a really great job in in making those people now more confident in Oh, online casting actually works really well. And after COVID To be honest, why should we go back? Because this was really, really easy. And I hope that the others did that the same about I do believe they they still very easy to just rip off the clients without knowing them. But that's a different story. But I'm still it's very, they have been ripped up very easily. Can I say that? legally? I'm not really sure. But as I'm as I as I did not say who I especially mean, I think I can get away with it. Otherwise, you have to cut it out? No. So I really do hope that with all the casting websites now joking aside, that they saw Hey, that that really works. That is an option. And yeah, not so good for the agents not so good for the recording studios. I totally get it. On the other hand, yeah, but I think this is where the world is heading to. And I just would wish that the bottom feeders and the amateurs would be more identify that we would train our clients more to listen, to listen to where they need to listen to, to separate the the amateurs from the pros, because at the end of the day, it's their bottom line, if a commercial does not really work that well, because it was just really bad talent.
Toby Ricketts
And you know, it's that whole thing of cheap talent, you know, you you end up paying for it somehow, like better and longer studio time or the campaign not working or you know, all that stuff's
Unknown Speaker
all. Very
Toby Ricketts
true. So let's get into some nitty gritty stuff about actually sort of using fidalgo. Because I remember hearing controversially, as usual, you're very controversial, but saying that when you did a presentation at one voice saying, no clients read the proposal text, don't even worry about their field, it doesn't even matter. Do you? Do you know if clients read the proposal text? It was probably a joke on stage.
Armin
No, no. They read the proposal because if they don't read the proposal, they can't can't send you a message because at the end of your proposal, there's this text field, that's where they can type in their answer when they say hey, great voice we want to book you. They could also go to your profile and do the same thing. But so yes, it's it's but what I wanted to say with that is, don't overthink it. The major thing because making this proposal also takes time, especially if you want to be relevant to this specific job. But this is what I always say, three sentences for at the most like salutation Hi, and whatever the name is, you see the first name so I would, I would suggest as a Hello first name is absolutely fine. And then three sentences. Why You are the talent for this job, it needs to be a relevant and unique benefit that that you can provide to the client. Now I know that is easier said than done. Because if the client doesn't describe the job very, very well, how can you find out if what unique relevant benefit there is to to, to get the client to sell. But if there is a briefing, then unique, relevant benefit, those three words must be there. And if you can't find some, well, maybe this is not a job in the first place you should audition for because then maybe it's okay, three sentences, Best regards, blah, blah, blah, blah, your contact details are attached to it automatically. You just have to make sure that your signature, which is also at your dashboard on your dashboard, when you go to Moodle, go make sure that your signature has those in email, telephone, mail address is not important. Just email telephone is the most important thing. And then fine. So don't overthink it. I really do not believe that. It's like the major thing. The major thing is your voice and your voice and your voice. And that's it. And you can do much more mistakes there than you can do in a cover letter.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, fair enough. It's good. When people are sort of, you know, the one of the biggest things that newbies have a problem doing is deciding what to charge, you know, and and charging for voiceover. It's one of these areas that you know, it was very stable for a long time with agents that had their rate cuts, etc, online casting came along, and then you know, the whole applecart got up turned. And there's been the rest of this argument of the race to the bottom, which kind of hasn't hasn't happened at the same time, like, you're still online, casting jobs have sometimes quite often a lot better rates than the agents are putting out still. So it hasn't I don't think we've seen a race to the bottom that was kind of predicted about five years ago. The big question or now,
Armin
when you when you're looking at Fiverr? There you have, yeah, but they're not already been violence.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, no, I said, that's, that's always been sort of, you know, it's it's kind of stratified. I think the different sites occupy different sort of, like ecological niches in the in the voice industry, if you like. So, like, the big question has been in recent years, and there's basically been, should the voiceover marketplaces, you know, have minimum rates and tell the clients what they should be paying and kind of enforce it, you know, because they've gotten a lot of stick for lifting jobs. I just saw one of one of the voiceover sites that was like, you know, it was a video for some pharma company, it was like, and it pays like 50 euros, it said in the in the title. And it was kind of like, I mean, that's obviously that's obviously way outside. So should they pull that job down? Or is it is it free market because you said you believed in free markets.
Armin
There's a few things to this, okay, let's fidalgo checks each and every job and if the budget is not where it should be, we would argue rejects the job. Even before that, if a client enters a job, the system will pre scan with some rules, if the budget is suitable for that job and rejected immediately suggesting the correct budget. Since since build algo has this the number of jobs that I had to then reject dropped dramatically. So if you which proves definitely that if you if you give reason why this is and this automatic or semi automatic tool does that gives reasons why the budget is higher. So that they actually are willing to learn and if a good reason comes along, they say okay, then I pay more fine now. But in Germany, you cannot force a price. Like Like an offer from the client, you can't really tell them no, it needs to be 1000 euros or else
Toby Ricketts
because like price fixing I said essentially as noted sir.
Armin
And and this is a difficult topic. So but Dalgo is working there in a gray area, but because we kind of say you have to you can't have it for 50 and but I think it's a gray area and so far Nope, of course nobody complains. But you can't force it the issue with with with all those those price lists we have is there there's just too many. In Germany we already have three different rate cards that just in Germany alone, and all over the world is like and then in an international world. What How do you do it like you have a Chinese client that wants a German most soba? Well which red card applies the Chinese red card or a German raid card shuffles I'm always saying the raid card where the talent lives applies because he needs to pay the prices or his setup living also in the country that he lives in. So his red card is the one that that should should, should be there. So, but it's very difficult. And in the for the for the all other markets we have, of course the GVA rate card we have I think you have a wonderful tool as well,
Toby Ricketts
he had a great look. Absolutely great. And is there a turning into right stuck over the brain calm or just google search, you know, great frame rate code, and it does have
Armin
exactly so this is a this is a great tool to have a look. There's also the bubblegum art which is a much more like, it's not so sophisticated as the as the gray before the rain tool. I always wanted to update it to reflect more countries it gives really just only a very rough idea of where things could start in pricing. Definitely not where they could end. So I would suggest Yep, GVA has a good read card and gravy for the brain. I have not understood how union works they have explained it to me many many times. I did not understand it, especially how to convert a non non union job into a union job. Three paymasters similar simultaneously try to explain that to me, I didn't get it. I think I'm, I'm more stupid than I.
Toby Ricketts
I'm pretty sure the union doesn't know how the union works out for the day. It's a very complicated, it's very cool.
Armin
Yeah, I have the feeling well, okay. But I'm not connected with the union at all with any union in world. So they can do whatever they think is best.
Toby Ricketts
I want to talk about a few of the The other thing that makes Hidalgo different is that you kind of you know, you've you've tried to add value through tools like bed elbow call, and prompter and CRM, etc. Did you add those? Is that the sort of a voice retention sort of strategy? Or did you see a need where people I mean, you know, but don't go but our call? Did you see an uplift in that during COVID? Because it would have been a very useful tool.
Armin
Yeah. What Oh, good call is definitely as at this moment where we know the talk, probably there are 20 sessions going on in this very second. And what I would call, it's not a huge number, but over a week, over a month, there's many, many, many sessions. And yes, there was a big peak there since since COVID. And now that, like I changed the system a few times, where you now can record when you when you can record the session, you record it or recording each single track. It's free for the premium talents. And and not only for the premium talents only if you want to record that's still free for the premium talents. But if you're not premium, you cannot record Well, you can record on your machine Of course, if you have the correct route routing and wiring. But um, yeah, I thought it's, it's a great tool. All the browsers are most of the browsers can do it, it's built in just you need to create the app. And I also saw it as a coding challenge. And oh boy, I age I aged definitely a few years doing this because it was a total nightmare to code. And then with with the CRM, I just thought it would be a nice to track down the your clients your jobs and so on. But I think it's when I when I built it, it's the the the amount of what it can do is maybe to reduced for for many people to use it. It's used people use it, but not excessively fidalgo prompted and which is totally free and I think it's the only only online teleprompter that is that you can that you can use your with your mobile phone where you can use your mobile phone as the remote control for the for the teleprompter, it really works wonderfully like magic. And and I got a such a nice email because there was a talent that was not any longer after not a stroke or something like that after a disease and he he was stuttering all the time when he was reading a page because he had to flick through the pages and he was stuttering. And this girl this lady wrote to me and said she she is she is completely over the moon because with fidalgo prompter, he stopped stuttering it will because it's because the text was flowing by itself and he could adjust the speed and there's this little bar where you can see the line you're reading at the moment as he said this this was this was totally unexpected. I was I was almost close to tears when I read well actually I was confused when I read read this email because this is something that I didn't didn't even think about. Yeah, and so so and yeah, and it's there and I will add over the time. They will Tools appear when I have an idea for a great tool, because I wanted fidalgo to become like a voice of a toolbox we had. One thing is, is the casting. But there are also other tools that you might like to use. And it's because they are free, it's not really to retain the premium talents, maybe it's also giving back to the community be like, I do really well with with with dogs, and I'm very, very grateful for that. And by sponsoring the events, or bringing those tools to the table for free. Basically, it's also kind of a giving back, and it doesn't cost me anything. Well, that's not actually super true, because kodagu call now costs me something because I have to pay for the relay service. Because it's now very many people from out there that use algo call, but I'm happy because the tool is there. It's it works. 99% of the cases it works really, really nicely. There are a few issues still. But um, it's it's a really reliable tool. Great. And it's been nominated for the one voice awards.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, well, good luck with that one. That's always good. So we're kind of getting into the at the end of the interview, we had a good long, long look at the sort of present, what do you see as some of the challenges that the voiceover industry is facing currently?
Armin
There are a few for the new ones that are coming in. There is the challenge that they must not believe that having a USB microphone connected to your computer will do the trick. They need to understand that first, before you think where can I have my demo produced? The first question you ask yourself is, how can I be good at that. And then once you're Are you you produce your demo. So you need to find a great coach or great online coaching right before the brain is a wonderful start for you to get going. Or to to start to start walking item. So but that's a that's, that's a good way to start. But and then you don't stop. You need to to to, to learn to konecranes you guys. So this is this is like both. So now what are the challenges ahead? Well, ai might be a challenge that we need to see where that goes. But I'm a firm believer that we are still very far away from from voices that you can actually direct. Because when there is a when when you do a commercial and then you say Oh, that was that was really nice AI. But Kenny, can you add a little bit of red carpet? Try to be arrogant but still approachable, running? Hmm. Good luck with that. Yeah. So but with things like elearning, that is completely where emotion is not present. I couldn't imagine that there might be a time in five years where the bottom feeders from Fiverr will have a hard time because what they do will be done by AI. But but the professional work and everything that has to do with acting like proper voice acting, animations, commercials, audio books, all of that creative. Very, very, very creative stuff. I don't see a way there at all. I think the professionals will be will be still good. If you are if you're good at what you're doing. Otherwise, you will be not by the by by AI. But I think we were looking at least five years in the future and maybe even more so. Yeah. And then
Toby Ricketts
did you read the the state of AI voice report that was 123 put out recently?
Armin
I'm not sure if I got through that company. I saw it. I am anything interesting in that. Well, it
Toby Ricketts
was interesting because it kind of showed that clients aren't really that into AI. Like I definitely thought that there were fewer, though it was less. It didn't look as rosy as I expected it to for AI you know, people people wouldn't we're not keen on hiring AI voices through the platform, which was which kind of interest Yes, I think that that can change
Armin
dramatically fast. And I think one reason why they are not that that keen on using our voices is because they hear I voices every day. And they can hear it's an AI voice. Siri, Alexa, they all get that kind of better than but are they really that much better compared to the GPS navigation in cars 15 years ago, they sounded pretty okay. On the next in 100 meters drive left. Okay, it got a bit better now. But there he is that and they say well, I can't To use that for eLearning, I can't use that for for my tutorials, I can't use that for commercials. And this is why, why they have already an expectation because they're listening to that stuff every day. And they think that's good enough for me keep reminding me about my appointment in two hours, but it's definitely not enough to become my next commercial boys. But when those girls and guys become better, and they will become better, then immediately millions and millions and millions of people will rate AI voices completely different.
Toby Ricketts
So, and I mean, yeah, it's, it's, it's like the uncanny valley, isn't it? Like, the closer you get to it, but you still know it's an AI, the more weird it feels like, you know, I mean, you could definitely wouldn't have audio books being read by AI, because, you know, you'd get sort of like, you know, 15 minutes in and it would be obvious at some point in that, that it was an AI and then suddenly you wouldn't trust the narrator, you wouldn't have that relationship.
Armin
It's any kind of real act they were acting is needed, you can't have that. Because in order to do to give it the proper read, the AI would need to understand what's going on. And imagine you have reference in one sentence to a reference, like the two to two paragraphs up. And you need to choose Tu Tu Tu, Tu, Tu, Tu Tu read it that way, I don't see eye at all, to be capable of doing that. Because then you know, the AI would not only need to understand what it's actually reading right now, it would have to remember and reference it, it would be the brain. Now it's not a AI, it's humans that can do that. And I don't see that decades, this is decades away until AI will be will be will be will be able to do that cut. Next morning will be the headline I read like a human.
Toby Ricketts
Exactly. It's gonna have it as another question about the future. I mean, and referencing the past, um, voices dotnet was something that we you released in 2019. And I was I'm very keen and still a beautiful sight. And it's still up there. I looked at my profile yesterday. Yes. What's sort of the status of it? No good news there. Do want to give people a bit of background just in case they missed the 20th? Oh, yeah.
Armin
So I had, I had the idea of creating a second second, voice up a website that was kind of unique, in some ways, were how, first of all, it would be totally free to voice over talents, it would be the clients that pave her casting.
Toby Ricketts
And there was a premium, kind of like, the very top end of the month,
Armin
it's only the top of the top of the top could even, like, build a profile there. And yes, and then COVID came and more and more time was dragged into, like, I better run the horse that is already on the track than the one that is still in the stable. And yes, so it could well be that the that the website disappears. It would be ashamed, but at the moment, I don't have any new data, I have no update there. It's, I it's a big shame. And I usually when I say this will be done. This will be done with basically everything I'm saying, but that maybe maybe I I bit off more than than I could chew I would have to probably employ people and I'm not sure whether I'm ready to do that.
Toby Ricketts
It's a big leap and it was I mean that might be you know interesting people for you to find out in this interview that you are at like a one man band and you know compared to the other the other companies who have you know distributed workforces around the world and they've got you know $40 million of venture capital funding and giant offices and stuff you know, you're considering you're playing in the same arena as them you really punch above your weight so well done and congratulations and your reputation always you know is very strong in the wizard community that you really listen and connect with and are part of the voiceover industry you don't kind of like you know, you don't sort of like farm voice over talent you're genuinely engaged like with your free tool. So I
Armin
I like tu tu tu tu tu tu hope that if somebody asks me a clear question, they will get a very clear answer. Sometimes I'm too I'm very direct and sometimes I can and, and not and not everybody likes them and I completely appreciate that. But um, at the end of the day, I just want to give like an honest true answer people can really like work with not every time the truth is is nice, nice to swallow, but you have to swallow it anyway if it's the truth. So yeah, I'm trying my best I'm not always at my best but i'm i'm trying must try harder.
Toby Ricketts
Very good. Have any other like products or services that are coming up for the delgo that you sort of want to talk about or anything on the horizon that you're excited about?
Armin
Well, I still think about the the new way how that clients can pay for the job plus feature, where on a set of talents is able to audition for I'm still thinking and about that. So this could come apart from that. Nothing major, really, there's always a little bit of optimization going on, still have a look at to get the the the opening rates up, if somebody out there has an idea of what should be done. So the people listen to even more of the auditions. I'm happy to discuss that at one voice conference in London, because London is opening the borders for us Germans again, which is great. Yeah, we'll just just shoot me a line. This is also something that if there is any question out there, that even Greg before the brain can answer or you, Toby. I'm happy to be emailed at armen@pulga.com. And usually I'm pretty fast with with emails, if you don't hear within a week, just shoot another one. You can't annoy me with that and just add an image on my plate.
Toby Ricketts
Cool. Fantastic. And if you watched all the way through this video justifying that, why it's called fidalgo calm, you can find out at belga calm because it's a question you get asked all the time. I know that.
Armin
Yes, it is. Apart from the question. What is English neutral?
Toby Ricketts
Well, yes, of course. Yeah. And the no one really knows the answer to that. Anyone who says they do. Still doesn't quite but you know, it's it's it's one of those. It's, it's it's a spectrum. It's a spectrum exam, but also also that answer is unbelievable. Nice, very good. So unfortunately, we won't be able to catch up at one voice because I'm in New Zealand. Now borders are still quite close to the rest of the world. But I'm sure I'll see you in 2022 over there in London. But thank you for joining me today. It's been an absolute ball. And I do have some ideas. I'm going to show you an email, but with with with some stuff. So look forward to that.
Armin
Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. was a real pleasure to catch up with you to talk to you and yeah, to all your viewers out there. I hope you had a little bit of you could take something home from all we said today.