Interview with Luke Downs - MD of RMK Voices Australia
/Today I sit down with Luke Downs Managing director of RMK Voices in Australia. This interview is a discussion of the state of the VO industry in Australia, where it has come from, where it is currently, and where it is going.
Luke and Toby discuss:
Luke's history in the VO field
Does he think that the amount of voice work is increasing?
Are there different market segments, budget-wise, that RMK cater to?
Voiceover rates - how they are set and how it varies
How to achieve fairness in pricing
Self agenting
Is there a union in Australia and where does it fit in?
Do voices need a home studio?
Why working with directors is important
Online voiceovers and pay to play sites
Custom demos vs casting from voice reels
What's your advice to newbie voices trying to get into the industry?
What trends are you seeing in voiceover?
How is the VO industry going to change in your opinion?
What's the value in hiring a agent represented VO?
Here is a transcript of the interview:
Toby Ricketts
Welcome to vo life brought to you by gravy for the brain Oceania. And this is the interview where I talk to people who are big in the voiceover industry. We talk to voice artists, we talk to agents, all kinds of people. today is one of those agents or agencies. I'm very pleased to present Luke downs for who's the managing director of RMK voices in Australia. G'day Luke
Luke
G'day Toby
How are you?
Toby Ricketts
Yeah pretty well, thank you pretty well. Now I want to start just just by setting the scene. I mean, I've I've I'm obviously located in New Zealand here. And I've been a voiceover for a number of years. And I've I've kind of dipped my toe into the Australian industry because it's right there. Just across the Tasman. But I found that like, when I have it's been sort of, I want to have this check. So I wanted to find out more about the Australian voice industry because it seems to be sort of a tougher nut to crack than possibly the US or, or sort of the British markets, etc. Yeah, exactly. So um, before we get into it, though, I'm just you're kind of history in the voice acting world, I understand that you were kind of in full immersion from quite a young age. Is that right? You kind of lived and breathed?
Luke
Yeah. Well, it's my father was a voiceover. So I did, I grew up with, I guess, a fairly good understanding of the voiceover industry from a young age. So my dad was, was one of the top voices in, in Australia, certainly through the 80s. And it was about the end of towards the end of the 80s. Around 8088. I think it was that he bought the agency, from the person who started it, who was now Ron Scott. So he kind of made a shift from being voiceover to agent and continued actually doing both. So right, right up until quite recently, actually, he's still been doing the voiceover. And I guess, and so I started 20 odd years ago, but 2021 22 years ago, was a time when my father wanted to was looking at retiring, getting out of voiceovers, something that I was sort of over in London at the time doing some sales jobs over there, and seemed like a great opportunity. And so so that's when I came on board. Yeah, just before 1999
Toby Ricketts
fantastic. Yeah. And it's interesting that you just reading some of your bio, from the website, the we have to have quite a shared history. And I think you were a cart boy at a local radio station, right? The same time I was a cart boy,
Luke
when when they used to have cart boys
Toby Ricketts
Exactly. Like, you know, someone used to have to take the national ads, and they had to take it off a newsfeed record onto reel to reel tape and then load onto individual carts. And I think it was actually a really good time in the industry to cut your teeth because you understood the old form of the industry and tape and the sort of, you know, linear editing systems. And it stood you in good stead for when nonlinear came about, wouldn't you say?
Luke
Yeah, it was, it was an interesting time. Because, you know, and going from that analog to digital, a lot of people really struggled with it. I guess we were I was quite lucky that that happened when I was young. But yeah, you know, I feel like an absolute dinosaur when I talk to people, particularly some of our younger audio engineers and, and tell them about the old reel to reel and, you know, splicing with a scalpel and marking with a china graph insulin. But it wasn't that long ago. Absolutely. It
Toby Ricketts
wasn't it doesn't feel like that long ago, does it? And
Luke
and yeah, it's I mean, it's it's aeons by by way of how far technologies come.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. And it's amazing to think like if we had that same technology, how much the sort of throughput of ads and the productivity would be reduced? Because it did take so much more time.
Luke
Yeah. And just, I mean, this is where studios used to, you know, spend a lot of their time and make a lot of their money was just doing dubs. I mean, every one of those ads actually had to be put onto a reel and sent around the country to all the radio stations who would run
Toby Ricketts
Exactly, yeah, gosh, it's, it's, it is very interesting, isn't it? So you've a lot of the agents that I that I know, have come from the kind of voiceover side of the, you know, they've been a voiceover and then they've bought or come into an agency and then and then managed, most of them stopped doing voiceover at that point. Do you do think that's a wise thing to do to still do voice service or do you sort of
Luke
Yeah, I've I've never done voiceovers, I, I did as a kid. And I did a an after, you know, in addition to being a Cart Boy, I also worked as a, like, we call it a Black Thunder pilot. He allowed the driving and promotional cars for radio station, they would say,
I think most, most radio stations have some sort of street vehicle named a thunder or lightning or So anyway, so that was about my extent of using my voice, you know, I guess, that sort of capacity, voiceovers. I did that when I was at the radio station. They tried to get me to do a couple of voiceovers. And I was terrible. And, and I guess that was something that I think might have held me in good stead as an agent is that I could recognize, I can recognize talent, and I can recognize a lack of talent. And certainly in terms of voiceovers, I'm in the latter category.
Toby Ricketts
I'm sorry to hear that. But you do make a great agent I'm telling. So that's fantastic. So given that you've, you know, had 20 years, as the as the head of this ship and immersed in the Australian voiceover industry, what would you say? Is the current state of the voice of industry in
Luke
Australia? Is
Toby Ricketts
it sort of fixed? Is it? Is it moving? What's going on? Yeah, look,
Luke
it's I think it's generally pretty healthy. There's, um, there's, we've got a quite a strong, I guess, in the, in the, in the, in the topic, I guess, the top part of town like the I guess, the where most of the let's call it premium sort of work would go. It's, there's a lot of solidarity, so that, you know, we are lucky to have a union, that is voiceover pretty well represented in that union. And most of the top voices would be a member of that union. So and that that helps us with achieving, you know, fair and reasonable rates and conditions for voiceovers. So, so what we find is that there's there's a, there's a few agents in Australia, specifically voiceover agents, but we generally get along pretty well. And we don't find that we have to compete on price too much. So it's, um, so that's, that's been helpful in, I guess, creating, I guess, having a bit of longevity. In this business, there is obviously the the cheaper end of town where, you know, there's, there's endless amounts of voice service sites out there where people can get, you know, cheap work done. But we don't really find that we have to compete. Well, we can't No, no one can compete in that area. But, but generally, our clients have a respect for the people that we manage, and, and a respect for the process. And, and I think, sort of don't mind paying reasonable fees, to get a great result.
Toby Ricketts
Exactly. Yeah, I mean, and that is the kind of the win win, which everyone wants to strive towards, and maintain really is this is the fact that in order to make, you know, in order to keep yourself as an artist and keep, keep yourself available artistically, for that kind of thing, you do need to charge a certain amount, which is, you know, which kind of holds the space for you to develop your art, for example. And by premium sort of end, I assume you're talking about sort of broadcast agency, you know, advertising agencies, etc, which have always traditionally held that kind of upper echelon of fees, etc. Have you seen an expansion in the not sort of super cheap sort of, you know, south of $200 kind of voiceovers, but like a kind of a mid tier, which is kind of, you know, it's going to be low exposure, and quite sort of high volume stuff. Do you engage in that kind of work? Yeah, look,
Luke
there's, I mean, it's constantly changing. As you know, there's there are areas that used to be big earners for us and big earners for many of our artists that have almost completely disappeared. You know, I mean, the area of promos, for example, TV promos. Some channels used to use voices three times three or four times a week, and those same channels are maybe using them once or twice a month now. So So, there's been changes in that. You know, obviously, there's a lot more applications now for voiceovers. We, when we when we look at social media and whatnot, which I guess has taken a lot of the Traditional TV and radio media, they have, we've had to make some adjustments on our rates to account for the limited exposure, or it might be very targeted, for example. So they might do you know, 15 tracks to target around one, just within one state. Now, that would Jim previously, that would have just been, you know, one fee for, you know, one state track. But now, there's 15 different in tags for the different dealers or whatever it might be. So, you know, we've made adjustments to recognize that change in our rates. But yeah, I think I think, you know, as long as you're adapting and evolving as the as the media, or the landscape changes, then then I think that's the main thing. Yeah, absolutely.
Toby Ricketts
And would you say overall, that, you know, vo work is increasing, maintaining the same place or, or is declining in certain areas? I mean, what were what areas, So, overall, so, you know, in all categories,
Luke
contents been a good area of business for us. So, so where we've, where we've noticed some changes, for example, there's been a dip in promos. You know, that's kind of been compensated by an increase in content. So you think about all the companies that are out there that have, you know, pretty much anyone who's got a website really should have some sort of video component, you know, whether it's a behind the scenes of the factory, or whether it's some sort of explainer videos, content has become so easy to create. And, and, and I think a lot of customers and your audience, go in search of finding out more if they're interested in in your product, or they're interested in your business. You know, they want to find out more and and it's pretty easy to create content. And there, of course, brings opportunities for voiceovers. Absolutely.
Toby Ricketts
And one of the things I've really struggled with in terms of pricing and coming up with rates and a lot of voiceovers, it's one of the hardest areas, you know, when they've done a few years in the industry, and that they're looking at, you know, getting really serious with their career, is trying to set their own rates, if they're self agenting. And one of the things I've really struggled with is when for example, you know, if you do a 92nd video for like a lawyer in the local village, for example, who's got you know, small number of clients, and it's in about us video or something that is the same work as doing, you know, a job for Facebook, for example, much of the same length of video, you know, it will probably take but but the different amounts of expertise you need for those two things are quite a different animal, and there's going to be a lot of more value extracted from the Facebook, and then there is from the local lawyer down in the village.
Luke
So what how
Toby Ricketts
do you sort of differentiate fees between sort of like big clients and and small clients? Do you ever make sort of exceptions? on that kind of basis? Where it is low, low usage? or
Luke
low? Yeah, look, it's it's a tough one. And it's something that that comes up quite a lot, the I believe in the UK. And in some, some of the US work, certainly the the union work, they would, they would have either a buyout or some sort of residual payment, where it's actually, you know, determined by the exposure, where it's going to be paid, how often it's going to be paid. And if there's a fee that's created accordingly, we have a kind of a broader rate card in Australia, which, again, is based on the the MBA the equity rate card. So we determine usage, or rights, by by how long it's going to be used, and where it's going to be used. And I guess how many tracks you might be creating. And we make a distinction between one state or more than one state, up to three months, up to six months, up to 12 months, and then it's PR media, so TV, online radio, cinema. So, but yeah, we still then have the same problem of, you know, bombs, butchers in petersham that might run an ad on a local radio station, you know, three times is paying the same, that Commonwealth Bank or Toyota might be paying to run that ad 15 times a day for three months. And it's Yeah, I don't know if there's sort of wiggle room as such. I mean, if you know if, if if there was going to be a Lot of like high quantity of tracks, you know, you might be able to serve it, you might come up with some sort of deal. But it's what we do is we just say, look, it's an it's an average rate card, there's better value, you know, if you're going to be, you know, high exposure add, and it's not as good a value if it's going to be used one off, but but you know, I guess, short of having some sort of residual system, you try to create something that's fair, and not too complicated.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. And the complexity thing is really is something I've really struggled with, because, like I try, I have, I currently use a system which is based on, like the value that's getting extracted from, from the work that I do, for example. So like, and I'll have, like, it's very hard to tell how like to really find a way to prove how big a company is. And I do it by I'm, like number of offices generally. So if they've only got one office there, and it's kind of a small thing, if they've got offices throughout one country, then that's like a national brand. And if they've got offices in multiple countries, then suddenly you're an international brand, and you can afford to pay top dollar, that's a good way of doing it, which is a quick way to differentiate because you just go to their website and see how many offices they've got. And then you know that. So that's the kind of the only fair way I've found to sort of differentiate between those two things. The tricky thing also with usage, because we're in this kind of like post broadcast era, where it used to be that, you know, if it's on national broadcast, that's your top rate, because everyone's seeing it. But now, it's like you put they, they want on the web straight away, you know, so you know, have broadcast plus where, but a lot of things are going straight to web now. So they'll just be there'll be paid placement on YouTube. And, you know, they're going to the entire world, theoretically. So how do you how has your, your company sort of pivoted to account for the fact that when it's on the web, it's basically everywhere? And you can't really stop playing it, like it exists on the web from then on?
Luke
Yeah, look, it's, again, it's sort of just, you have to sort of look at it as a, I guess, an average, since there will always be some tracks that have high exposure. And, you know, you've charged the same fee, as you know, tracks that have a lower exposure. But, but I think, I mean, one of the one of the challenges that we faced when we were, and we kind of designed the rate card, in consultation with voice artists, with the union, and with the communications Council, which is sort of the the governing body for advertising agencies. So we generally are not out these rates. And one of the big challenges was with internet usage. And when, when, you know, many years ago, when sort of internet was sort of, you know, knew we, we would just charge a, you know, something went on the internet, it was either, you know, if it's a commercial, you kind of go five times the national fee. And if it was an aeration, you double it. So you just go well double for worldwide usage. But the it's actually very targeted now. So when you see an ad on Facebook, or you're looking at the news page, and you know, before the story comes up and ad comes on, you know, they actually, you know, sort of geo locate those two very specific regions. So it's actually it's often a much smaller audience. That is actually your your material is being exposed to them, what would it have been, it would have been on a traditional sort of TV media. But we still base online usage, you know, on a on a, I guess, a traditional sort of TV track. But we will look at it if it's only going to be played in a specific region, and they can geo lock that in so that they will know that it's only in that area. And then we can say, Well, you know, we know it's only going to go to so many people. And then we can take that into consideration when we're quoting.
Toby Ricketts
Absolutely. And all of your intent, incidentally, it's a great rate code you've got on the on the RMK site. And, and a good sort of reference point for people. It was also really heartening for me, because I've sort of worked on my record, as I say, for the last two or three years to try and get it right. And it came out almost exactly the same as your rates evolved completely in isolation. And when I compare notes, like, wow, we're actually charging, which is a good indication that like, that's what the market will bear and that's what is a fair price and people are prepared. Yeah, you know, so that was that was very heartening for me. Let's
Luke
go here and look at something that we, you know, whenever there's someone, you know, looking for representation, and we can't help them or they come to us, and, look, I've got this job, you know, with someone so I don't know what to charge. You know, we'll we'll sort of direct them to our rate card, and we don't Mind outbreak cart being used infected some, it's been borrowed by, by, you know, quite a few people, including other agencies. And and that's fine because i like i said i think it's a fair rate card, the commercial side is actually, you know, endorsed by the union, and then the non commercial rates are pretty much in line with, with what most of the top, you know, professional agencies charge.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, fantastic. So I mean, I said at the outset that one of the things I found sort of difficult when when I was trying to sort of study the Australian market was that, basically, you have to live near a studio in Australia, there isn't this kind of, as we've seen in especially the UK and America and other places around the world. voiceovers have an agent, they also have a home studio, and they can do tracks from there. And you pretty much in my writing, in the fact that you pretty much don't accept voices that aren't don't live in Sydney, Sydney, or Melbourne, sort of near a studio.
Luke
Yeah, look, it's a few of our artists, you know, started in Sydney, and then have moved, you know, into regional areas or, or internationally, and will continue to manage them. Up until a year ago, let's say pre COVID, that was absolutely the preferred method of recording anything was to go to a professional studio. And it's quite an important part of, I guess, the whole production and creative process, the studios doing more than just, you know, edit and, you know, create the sound, they're often offering direction advice, you know, they're there, they're working in with the creatives and sort of helping to sort of translate the message from the creative to the, to the voice, and helping the voice get the best, you know, get the best out of the voice as well. So it's always been a really nice, respectful sort of relationship that we have between agencies, you know, ad agencies, talent agencies, and, and studios. And that was reflected in the fact that, you know, most most work with, you know, you just couldn't really do it from home or, or it wasn't, just wasn't in demand. Now, that's, that has changed, you know, by necessity. Through this through the last year, where people, you know, have set up, you know, set up home studio, I mean, you almost have to have a home studio now. Yeah. And they will still generally connect up with a professional Sound Studio, using source Connect, or phone link up or whatever it might be. But, but I guess, look, it's you probably know, know this as well, you can fire out a million arrows to, to all these clients around the world. But you, you're, you're one of, you know, 1000s of people sending out that, you know, probably a very similar message. When you're actually on the ground, and you actually go and meet people. And I'm sure, you probably would experience when you're in a, you know, professional studio, do you think that you get they get a better product out of you, when you're not having to worry about the technical side? I,
Toby Ricketts
I definitely think there is, it's slightly different. I feel like sauce Connect has closed the gap a little bit between that and like, because I mean, always recording on your own self directing, when you give us you know, three takes and you're guessing about the interpretation of the script, and you're maybe doing a bit of direction via email, it's never the same as being in the moment and getting that good, like feedback. But I think source Connect does close that in terms of like, they can give you direct feedback, straight away, even over zoom or something. They can, they can give you feedback. But I know that before COVID when when I had a London agent for a while, and they they said like, you know, clients love your voice, but they just, they want to be in the studio, they just want to shake your hand. look you in the eye. Yeah. And that's the bridge. I think that that COVID has kind of just pushed us over as the fact that you know, our work can still direct over over this thing. So, and I think that's why it has taken off and it will retain even when you know, everyone's COVID free. I feel like it said it's become a bit more. Yeah,
Luke
that's an interesting point. You make two because I you know, in London, you know, from what I understand pre COVID you know, in at least in the top area of the business, you know Almost no one had home studios or work from home studios. Yeah, so we represent a guy who's got a an agent in London, and he had a very good home studio and was able to when COVID hit, you know, his, his work in the UK increased dramatically, because everyone was sort of playing catch up in building their own studios working out how to use the software, etc.
Toby Ricketts
The other big thing about having a home studio is the fact that there's this whole new thing, especially America with custom demos. So every job that goes through, you know, 100 voice artists jump into a booth and give the best read, and then the clients can compare all of the all of the different takes, you know, apples with apples, as it were. I understand you're still I mean, you still pretty much casting from demos, is that right? And you have fees for
Luke
Yeah, look, you know, the, I guess the the first the first layer of the casting process? Yeah, absolutely. It's from an artist demo. What we've most of our artists would have categorized demos. So they would have, you know, in addition to their main compilation demo, it might be a voice acting demo, and a natural demo, a promos, demo characters, or whatever, several. So it does provide something a little bit more, I guess, specific than just the, you know, here's me doing everything. So will, you know, so that that's the first step it might be? There's a lot of people that specialize in voice casting here as well, not just us within the agency, but also a lot a lot of creatives will will, will be experts in in the voices that are that are available, and offer suggestions in that area, and certainly to the Sound Studios as well. So they might sort of say, look, have a listen, you know, when you when the brief first comes along, they'll say have a listen, these guys now go to the demos, they'll play their compilations or their current, you know, specific demo. And then they might create a shortlist now, from that shortlist, you probably would, then if it's a decent campaign, you'd probably get two or three voices to go in and test for that. But we, and I guess it's, you know, thankful for that strength of the industry, we do get paid for that. It'll be a submission fee, which just covers the artists time. And then from that, the client can make a pretty informed judgment as to what they want. And in that, as well, of course, when you're doing a demo or a submission, and you're getting paid for it, you're, you're also getting direction from the client. So and you've touched on this before, when you're when you don't have that when you're sort of going blind, and you've just got a script and, and, and a bit of a brief, you know, you think it should sound like this now, you know, it's it's often wrong. And that's, I guess, the, that's a real key for successful voices. It's not how you think it should sound. It's your ability to interpret, I guess the message as to how the client thinks it should sound. Yeah,
Toby Ricketts
absolutely. And, yeah, that feedback is, is so useful. And that's, I mean, that's something that it's very hard for voiceover starting out, to get like, in order to get better, you kind of need to be told, like what not to do or to, to kind of experiment with your range and see how, you know, to go in different directions. Yeah,
Luke
and see and work with different people and get that input from, from all these different people. Yeah, in fact, we one of the downsides with, you know, the home studios. And I think, you know, particularly a lot of work, you know, very, very keen voices came to sort of, you know, hone their craft will often develop very bad habits. When they're self directing, you know, they, they're listening to the sound of their voice, and they want to make it, you know, deep and rich and, and they often lose what the message in the script is, because they're listening too closely to their voice. And as you probably know, you know, clients these days want real voices, you know, they want relatable voices. So, so quite often, you know, you end up with these will, you know, voices that have been practicing and working on their voice and these crafts and their delivery, have often sort of gone too far in the wrong direction? Where there's actually not that
Toby Ricketts
much demand. Yeah, go down a rabbit hole. emulate? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm going back to the gym. Yeah. But like home studios and custom demos, I imagine it's quite tricky. Like, if you were to roll out the system where people, you know, if a client wanted to have a demo reading of a script, not kind of a giving advantage to those voiceovers that had home studios versus those that didn't, it's almost like everyone would have to have a home studio for you to start offering that. So that because if the client gets, you know, a couple of generic demos, and then a custom demo of their script, they're more likely to like the one with the script, because they're like, Oh, well, those are my words, like, I'm hearing my words back at me. And they don't have to use their imagination to make that leap. So do you think it's something you'll consider in the future in terms of like home demos? If If enough people get on board with that kind of thing? Like, is it something you see that in the future you will go towards? Are you going to hold out?
Luke
You know, if it's, if if, like I said, if it's a big job, or if it's a big campaign? You know, we'll we'll always do you know, demos, and and if that's what the client wants, quite often, scripts are written with a voiceover already in mind. You know, I think there's not a big casting process. So and really, you know, at the moment where we do, most of the time receive a fee for those. For those for those demos, so it's probably not really in our interest to start giving that away. For nothing. Yeah. And I'm not sure how much value that gives to the client anyway, I mean, yes, I can take your point about that. receiving their actual script and being able to go, Hey, we, you know, we've got all these people, and we can actually go, this is, you know, very specifically who, who sounds great reading now script. But, but quite often, by listening to artists demos, you might actually hear something on a demo that you had not considered for your script, or you might go are actually what you did on, you know, on the read for Commonwealth Bank, that's, that's the voice that I want it so i think i think can actually help in the whole process. When when clients are casting off demos. And I think the other thing that, you know, certainly when, you know, I've spoken to clients who have done that, you know, being let's call it a cattle call, where they, you know, send out the script, and they get, you know, hundreds of responses. I mean, you know, it's, that would be pretty challenging task to trawl through all of those and, and find your favorites. And, and I think particularly when you're working off some of those, you know, let's discount voices websites. You've got to trawl through a lot of rough before you find the diamonds idea.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's gotten quite crazy. In America, I know a lot of my agents over there, when I get scripts, they say, you know, you have to read, you know, it's like, it's maybe probably 60 seconds with a copy the like, you have to read the whole script. And you have to read it three times, and these three different styles. And then they often submit that the like the production company, the production company will take their favorite their favorites, you know, people, they'll actually assemble the entire ad, including visuals, and then they'll present those to the client. So they're basically like the clients just picking basically the finished ad. And then they'll
Luke
voiceover hasn't received
Toby Ricketts
a fee. Well, that's the thing. Exactly. So it is it is generating a huge amount of unpaid work over there in the states for you know, but I guess people who are full time voiceover ads, they're in the studio all day just doing these kind of, you know, random ads.
Luke
They then compensated for the fact that when they do lead the ad, or ad that it's like, at least high, you know, higher paying,
Toby Ricketts
I absolutely this is this is for things that are north of like 3000 US dollars, you know, this is sort of your TV, commercial territory, or sag, sag contract. So it is definitely like it is when you look at the auditioning for little jobs versus big jobs, it is worth putting the extra effort into those big jobs because you land one of those. Yeah, I've paid for quite a few
Luke
women doing that for I guess, a smaller fee. Now you'd hate to be putting through all those auditions and you're known for that. I mean, what would you think is a sort of
Toby Ricketts
hit rate for a successful voice? Would it be one in 10 that they'd get or would it be one in 53 sort of average jobs, I would be booking at about a one and 10 one and 12 rate of when I'm working to try to custom audition and but one in 20 It's more like the average kind of, you know, if you're in the first couple of years, and you know, if you're a real beginner, it's probably more like one and 100. And, and price might be more relevant in terms of, you know, the, the clients are on that end of the spectrum where they, they just want someone to fill the void. And of course, now we've got this much of wealth later, but we've got this whole added dimension of like, speech Hello, and, and, you know, ai synthesized voices, which are lower than that bottom end, but I mean, you can't really call them voices because it just turns out human voices or not, yeah. It's, it's,
Luke
I think, something that, you know, sends fear into the minds of many voice artists. The idea that you can just compute a generate, you know, a read, but, but I think for certainly the area of the marketplace that that we work in, I mean, there's just so much beyond just, you know, reading out words voice ever brings, you know, and then just even something timing, you know, just where they pause, yeah. What, you know, where the inflection goes, I can't see how a computer could ever take that job away from someone.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, I mean, I my mind constraints where a computer could do it, but the like, it's hard enough giving from a human giving direction to another human and then getting it right, let alone someone trying to program a computer to like, do this, that's, that's gonna be the area is like, how do you actually tell the computer? You know, I want a little bit, I just want a bit more sparkle. I want this to read to be a bit more orange. You know? Yeah. Abstract directions are sort of, you know, favorite. Cool. So yeah, we've so we briefly touched on sort of online voiceover sites. Like, I mean, America sort of has has led the world in the not exactly the race to the bottom, but the fragmentation of the voiceover industry. Due to demands, I guess, like the fact that there are so many more just like low budget with videos that some of which will never be seen. There seems to be so much work around that, and, you know, players like voices, calm voice 123, but algo. Mandy, there's all kinds of different tears in the industry. But there's nothing that seems to be in the Oceania sort of space, or, or England to be to be fair to so like, the kind of the the Europeans are still still kind of in the old model. But America definitely seems to be setting this kind of standard where, you know, people in not necessarily agents, although agencies are using it in the states to cast big commercials. But the bulk of the work seems to be in that kind of 200 to $500 space, like conference openers and stuff like that. Do you see that market coming over here at all, like a pay to play?
Luke
It's been, it's been trying to, I guess, gain traction here for at least 15 years. I mean, I, we, you know, I've had discussions going back to almost when I first started with various people looking to launch these sorts of offerings to the Australian marketplace. But obviously, you know, and, you know, you mentioned it before I sort of race to the bottom, we I've I've kind of closely followed what's going on in the American landscape. And all of these, these paper place, sites started off in the same way where you know, you, hey, you're free to join list on our website, and then clients can just go doesn't matter what agency you're with, they can go to one place, and here's all these professional voices, and you can select. So in the beginning, that said, that's how simple it was being sold as just like a directory site. So and and then, then what happens is, oh, it'd be great. If you know, you would send us a sample of you reading this ad, say, start pitching for the job. The next step is now what rate Are you going to charge us for, for that, and then you end up with this sort of, you know, auction system, where people are submitting, you know, a free of charge demo, and then saying an end, I'll do it for this match. And generally, if it's, you know, particularly if it's not being managed by an agent, which I don't imagine much of it is. They're probably not asking the right questions. Where is this going to be used? How long is it going to be used for how many tracks are you going to create? So you end up you know, it's, I mean, it's it's had devastating effects in the American industry, the the rise and popularity of these sites. So So we've been quite fortunate in in Australia that when these sites have come into our A landscape that we recognize what's happened in other industries and said, well, that's it's not good. It's not sustainable. I mean, you know, it might be sustainable in an in a market like America because it's, you know, so much bigger than Australia. But you can't have a, in a small country like Australia or New Zealand. You know, you can't be offering free demos and, and, and, and cheap breaks for you know, a sustainable industry I mean, you what you would end up with is I mean, every voice I imagine would have to have a second job. No, you wouldn't be able to have a sustainable industry, if you've got sites like they've got in the states in our market being used.
Toby Ricketts
But on the on the kind of like, the free demos front, I mean, I, as you know, a full time voiceover artist, I'm constantly, you know, looking for work and auditioning for work. So I probably do about, you know, 10 to maybe 10 to 20 auditions per day for various things on an average day. And, I mean, I,
Luke
I
Toby Ricketts
I don't mind doing that. Because like, I love the auditioning process. Like I think I think to be a voiceover artist, you have to love auditioning, like you have to see is your chance to get better every time you do one your chance to try out new stuff and see if you're any good and and exercise yourself direction with
Luke
your of that of those of those tests and the demos that you're doing. How much of that is for the markets outside of New Zealand?
Toby Ricketts
Almost all of it sent money for you talking us in UAE British Yes, absolutely. Yeah. All people from these countries who are posting on those those foreign sites, but it is mostly from from America and and possibly the Middle East, a little bit of it, but mostly Europe and and America. My question was gonna be I'm not sure how many invoices you have on your market as your books. And I wonder how many of those are full time professional voiceovers? Like, isn't they sit around waiting for the call? And like, do they? Would they mind doing demos from home in? Will they enjoy doing this from their home? Or you know, that kind of thing? Like, is it that much of a strain on voice service to do custom demos?
Luke
Yeah, I think there's, we have about 200 voices between Sydney and Melbourne, which are our main markets. of those. Probably 50% would be full time freelance voiceover artists. Yeah, I mean, they've probably got time to do the, you know, free tests. But, but like you're saying, it's, you know, if, if, if that sort of area is, you know, two to $500. And you're doing, you know, 1010 tests, it's quite a quite a, quite an amount of work for what might be quite a small return. And particularly, you know, you would hate to be investing your time in the free stuff, at the expense of what work could be time with a paying client. So look, I mean, it, it might go that way. But again, our rights are governed by a union here. And the union stipulates that there's a fee for demos. And that, that's also been been endorsed by the communications Council, which is the governing body for ad agency. So I think everyone kind of thinks that, you know, voices should be paid for their time. There are there are obviously reasons why you might do tests, if they're looking for a new voice for a major brand, or a major campaign, or a new channel. Sure, you know, for it makes sense to do to do free tests for that. But just for, you know, a radio ad or a TV ad or, you know, a content piece, you know, I think you can get a pretty good handle on on the suitability of a voice by listening to their, their demo. And most of the time, I mean, we did, we don't do many redos where the casting wasn't right. So I think most of the time, it's a successful process.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. And it's a collaboration between you and you knowing your voices and knowing what's right for the project as well as image and that's where you get your value, right, as well as better for the client. So and it makes a lot of sense. Caught we're fostering a time and during this conversation so much, it's very stimulating. I'm sure my viewers are a large segment, for example, on gravy for the brain, which is, you know, an education platform for for people who want to learn more about being a voiceover artist. And then progressive skills as a sort of a beginner or intermediate voiceover artist, is a lot of people see that agents are kind of a gatekeeper to the industry is like, if you haven't got an agent, then you don't get that kind of work. You won't be in the Telstra ad and you won't be in the, you know, the Beagle Channel level stuff. But it seems very difficult to, to actually make that first step because agents say, well, right, well, what have you done? And you're like, Well, I haven't done anything because I haven't got an agent. And there's this kind of chicken and egg scenario, which is exactly yeah. And it's one of the reasons I started my I started my sort of foray into the voice education sphere, because I've got so many people saying exactly that. It was like, well, let's make this kind of like, no man's land in the middle where you do ads, and it's not real. But at least you've got something on tape, and you've learnt a bit about yourself, and what's your best advice for aspiring voiceovers to try and gain experience? Like to bridge that? No,
Luke
man? Yeah. Yeah, look, it's it's tenacity, isn't it? I mean, you know, this, most of the, almost every voice that we represent, we probably said no to them several times, over several years before we were able to take them on. And it's, you know, there's a range of criteria that, you know, that we have to consider before we take on a new voice. But certainly, you know, having having experience, you know, some sort of profile is, you know, almost vital. So, it is very hard for people, you know, new starting out in the business. I think I think acting courses always add to voices skill set, you know, obviously, the, nothing happens before, you've got some sort of example of your work. And that that is normally, you know, a demo. So, once you get that demo, you know, it's just, you know, you can shop it around agents, you might, you might find yourself, you know, with it with an agent review, if you're very good and a little bit lucky, and I happen to have good timing. But then you, you know, there's a lot of studios, and there's a lot of radio stations that like to discover people, you know, they're real, they're very passionate about what they do. And if you're presenting something that's, you know, interesting, it's something that's new, they'll generally listen to it. And, and then it's, you know, that fine line between being persistent and being a nuisance, but just just coming up, and I think you always need an angle, you always need a reason to contact someone, it's not just Have you listened my demo yet? But it might be you know, I guess do your homework, you know, if there is a radio, stereo radio stations are great, because, you know, they've got a high demand of voices. Yeah. And, and, you know, then they're generally you know, very passionate about the crafts, and they are on the lookout for new voices. So if if you are starting out, you know, hit up all your all the local radio stations, now the the the creatives that copywriters, the the, the programming production, and, and look, look at ways to get your demo heard, and look at ways you know, it might be look, I'd love the opportunity to come in there, you know, and what about, Hey, I won't charge you if if you don't use it, you know? So we're looking for ways that you can get that that foot in the door that you can build up a bit of experience and start establishing some some you know, solid relationships but but you know, it be prepared for it to take years it'll it will take years. And along that time. You're developing relationships. you're developing, you know, your skills because you're getting exposure to different directors and to different people and your your demos will progress as well. Of course.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, absolutely. It's, it's worth mentioning as well, like it's really good to immerse yourself in media so that you know what the current landscape is like, watch lots of TV ads, radio ads, etc. and try and come up with a new pigeonhole, because often like an agency, there's no point in you sounding exactly like a sore voice. It's been on the market for eight years. Like you've got to find a new niche so that like people like Oh, that's a bit different, you know?
Luke
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it amazes me how many people will say and almost proudly, are now I don't watch commercial TV, or I don't listen to radio. You know, I listen to Spotify, or I've got my playlist on And you think, well, you are mad, you know you to not watch free to air television and hear what ads are on, you know, or on the, on the television on the radio, so that you can understand what the, what the trends are at the moment because they're always changing. Yeah. And you you're here, you know, every now and then you just hear something that's new and unique. And it stands out and sounds amazing. Yeah. And then to be able to have that as kind of reference material in your brain, when you're in a session to be able to go actually, and you're not going to do your impression of that. But you're you're going to sort of you can borrow, you know, where they put that that pause, or, or where they put that inflection was really interesting. I might try that on my neck. So you know, I mean, you know, I think absolutely, you know, listen, you know, to as much as you can that's in the marketplace, you know, now
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, and let it inform your performances, I think it's like, you know, let's rub off on it in certain in certain reads like, I actually the last interview I did with Eric Perkins, the audiobook narrator one of our he's written a series of books, which profoundly just influenced the way I do like nonfiction kind of content scripts, because just his way of phrasing things was so clear. And you know, it's good to borrow those things and just hear how people are doing it and and let it to affect your own performance, I
Luke
think. Yeah, absolutely. Um, speaking
Toby Ricketts
of vo trends, what are some vo trends in the Australian market? Is it the same as everywhere else? Where it's just like, let's just bring it down? You're just talking to another person?
Luke
Yeah, I mean, I suspect you've had this direction as well over in New Zealand. I want to just like you're talking to your mate in the pub. That that's, that's still I mean, that's been around for a while. People want it used to be the talking out you and I guess narrations, you know, if you if you think back to the ratios from you know, even even 10 years ago, but certainly 1520 years ago, it was that very authoritative, sort of, here we are with bhp and we're doing things this way. And that's completely shifted to rather than talking at people, you're talking to them, and, and you want to be relatable. So inside your PHP, this what we do, and then
Toby Ricketts
sharing an idea, it's kind of like, a place at the end of the universe, you know,
Luke
that's right. And yeah, it's, so a lot of people will say, I, you know, I want something natural, I want it conversational, I want to casual. So that's, that's definitely a trend at the moment. I think, you know, and it's, it's some great advice, I think that a lot of voices have been given over the years. But I think it's, you know, whenever you're reading a script, you know, you've got it, you've got to imagine that you're actually, you know, you're talking to one person, you know, there's, there's a person on the other end of that, you know, that speaker, and then listening to your message. And, and I think that's, you know, rather than just sort of reading words on a page, and, you know, making some sort of announcement, it's actually trying to have a conversation with someone or trying to be just trying to be relatable. And I think that's a trend that will probably hopefully never go away, because it's a it's a great way of communicating.
Toby Ricketts
So there's no place left for my radio voice.
Luke
Yeah, and that that's certainly something that, you know, whenever we get a lot of people, you know, making inquiries for representation here. And, and they'll always want not always, but quite often, they're putting on their best radio voice. And the conversation usually goes along the lines of I've been told that I've got a great voice, and I thought it was time that I finally did something about the class. I welcome. You can start by dropping the silly voice.
Toby Ricketts
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And realize it's like 5% of it is only a good voice. And the rest is just script interpretation.
Luke
Yeah. Well, I mean, most of the top voices here, you could talk to them for an hour and you wouldn't even know that they're a voiceover. You know, they just, they just sound like regular guys. Yeah, exactly.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah, a lot. A lot of people when I put on my radio voice, they might, you know, voice over voice, it comes from a completely different place a lot like, you know, like 100 meter sprinter. You know, Usain Bolt doesn't walk a different way because he can run really fast.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, it's
Toby Ricketts
a whole different muscle set that gets used. I want to point out as well for, you know, for aspiring voiceovers who are looking for a presentation, there's a great guide on your site and the FAQ section. I think it's really well written in terms of like managing people's expectations, because it is one of those industries where you know, this This, there's not a ton of work to go around. I think it's increasing, I think there is more work. But that, you know, it is one of the things that a lot of people want to do as well. So the cream really does like, you know, rise to the top. And there's about tenacity. And and what do you say? The other thing is, I basically put it down to, you know, having a certain natural talent, a passion for it. And in perseverance,
Luke
yes, anything? Yeah, absolutely. You sort of touched on it before, you know, I think there is a there's certainly there's a lot of work out there. But you know, there's a, there's a hell of a lot of people that want to do it. I was talking to one legendary sound engineer down in Melbourne. And he was explaining the lovely analogies. You know, it used to be this lovely little garden that we had in the voice so you know, in the industry of voiceovers, and he said it and now it's an absolute jungle. So so you know, and they're, and they're in does create opportunities, you know, for so. So one of the things that we've noticed, yes, there's all these, you know, websites that, you know, there's 1000s of voices on offer to anyone. And there's so many more people doing voiceovers in Australia now than they were, you know, 10 years ago, 20 years ago. But, but it almost creates, it's, it's too big for a lot of clients to even contemplate. So they know that they can come to our MK or they, you know, go to go to an agency, and they can cut through the clutter. So I know, and I guess that's, that's, you know, certainly something that benefit of why people do benefit from having agency representation. And I guess that's the tough, tough thing for anyone starting out is, you know, to be able to get noticed, in what is quite a crowded marketplace. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So
Toby Ricketts
it's Yeah, agents really do offer that sort of, you know, dependability, and, and making it really simple, which more and more clients wants, but yeah,
Luke
and it's, and it's a high hit rate, you know, I mean, you know, if you get a voice from an agency, you know, they can, they will deliver, very seldom is it not exactly what the client wants, and if it is, then they'll just choose another voice. But then usually by the stage that, you know, it gets to that point, you know, there's been a discussion with with us, we, you know, diagnose what they want, what they're looking for, and, you know, going through the brief will offer a range of what, you know, suggestions of people that we think, fit that brief, by then have a listen to them, and then I'll go Yeah, I think, you know, this one, or these two people, let's, let's give them a go. And it might be, you know, two or three people that all go through the same ad. And then and then from that, all right,
Toby Ricketts
so just sort of, um, to wrap things up, because I know we've taken an hour of your time. And thank you so much for lending us your time. So our ideas, what do you see as the kind of the future for voiceover in Australia, like, I sense that there is there is a small groundswell of you know, home based, you know, studios, going for that non union work potentially, like working on those offshore platforms, and perhaps, you know, calling their local video production companies, is there room, do you think in the market is there? Do you think that's sort of how it's going to move forward? is that there's sort of two parallel industries?
Luke
Yeah, I think so. No, I mean, you know, if you look at the sort of the states, and quite often, you know, what happens in America sort of happens here, you know, down the track. And you do end up with, I mean, we almost kind of have that already there, you know, you've got your, in America to Union and non union sort of work, you could, you could, you know, make that distinction. And here, you probably say it's, you know, the best professional sort of top end of the marketplace, and then there's, you know, the lower end of the marketplace. And, you know, that's generally the voices that will be listed on those directory sites, you know, and it's a, it's a, it's a, there'll always be a market for the, you know, cheaper voices. And, you know, there's a lot of clients that simply can't afford to be, you know, paying, you know, agency rates or union rates for work, or they maybe don't see the value in painting that. So there always be marketing, that sort of lower end. But I think, but there's, there's also, you know, the bulk of our clients, so don't mind paying reasonable rates, and understand that, okay, that might be $1,000 for 30 minutes of your time, but you're not just paying for the 30 minutes in studio. You're paying for all that time, building up your experience and building out your skill set of being able to shave a quarter of a second off a 32nd script or, or actually, you know, you've got something that's Waterworld copy, and, you know, it's running 15 seconds over, but you've got to actually make it sound slower, you know, all those tips and tricks that you learn along the way, that's what they're paying for. And the other thing that they're paying for is the ability to get that voice in a studio, you know, tomorrow at 10 o'clock or more this afternoon, at one o'clock, a lot of our work is sort of, you know, booked on the same day. And so to have voices available, you know, at a moment's notice, means that you need to pay a reasonable fee, so that people don't have to go and do a second, you know, another job. Because if they're not, you know, if you don't have available full time, freelance voices, then you kind of got to, you know, book things around whatever the other other job might be. So, so that's something when when you talk about the distinction between union non union or, or, or agency representative voices, and non agency representative voices, or the top end of the marketplace and the bottom, it's very difficult to come out of that bottom area of the marketplace, if you've been giving your product away, cheaply. It's very hard to then start charging reasonable fees. So So even when you're starting out, even when you're new to the to the industry, you know, Yeah, dude, you can do demos, you can do, you know, offer your services for, you know, for looking at doing deals where, you know, okay, well, let me just give me a shot, let me let me have a go. But then say, and I'll only charge you if you use it, you know, I think I think I think you can do stuff for free, or you can do stuff you know, without having a set rate card right for it. But don't give it away and understand what your value is
Toby Ricketts
something for free than it inherently has no value.
Luke
Right? Well, that's right. Yeah. And, and, and once you start doing that, you know, and our industry and I'm sure yours is the same is littered with people who were great voices, you know, they used to be at the top top end of town, and then they started doing cheap deals, and then they start doing, you know, started giving it away or started doing. And then what happens is you ended up doing work before that, you know, if they, if they want to spend, don't want to spend money on a voice, they probably don't want to spend money on production, they probably don't want to spend money on you know, quality. And so the whole, you know, you you start being the voice of these ads that look and sound terrible. And then that damages your brand, you know, I heard them doing something recently, and before you know, and you know, like, like I said, there's quite a few examples in this industry of people that used to be top voices, but now you just hear them on some terrible and they're doing nothing. And it's quite sad, you know, all because they've sort of, at some point, they've made a decision to chase these jobs and do deals and, and, and sort of price themselves, you know, down in order to get the work and it's and it's kind of ruin their career. Yeah, that's
Toby Ricketts
a very good point, actually, about the you know, the the quality of the work that you've been hired upon, you know, that it does slowly go down. I mean, I like to think that I already know that I used to be in that kind of bottom tier and I have, I have, you know, every year have put my prices up. And you know, in my kind of, you know, 10 year career so far as being a voice artist, I did start right at the bottom and then and now I'm you know, doing sag gigs and stuff of equal value. But I feel like the the missing component. And the reason people stay in that is not because of their voice training ability and their craft sort of work that they do. It's in the marketing and business side of their voiceover business. So like they don't, you know, they don't know that you should never, you know, discount always add value. So, you know, like, charge what you want, and then make it worth their while with other stuff you put on rather than, you know, being value added. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Simple things like that. But and that's, yeah, that's something else that I feel like there's this this huge scope in the industry for is is that kind of business training around about around non agency represented? Yeah,
Luke
and I think a lot of people don't and look, maybe that's also, you know, good for us as an agency, because we usually take care of most of the business side of the voiceover business for our artists. But even with an agent, you know, you still have to treat it as a business, you know, you're still product, you're still providing a service. You know, things like when You do go into a studio or even if you're, if you're on a zoom, and being presentable, looking good, like everything, some people turn up to professional studios, you know, in tracking pants. And, you know, it's so so you know, you've got to understand and like you said, the value added, I mean, you know, punctuality, professionalism, and just simple. You know, one of the simplest things, you know, a little at the end of the job. Thank you. Thanks for the booking. It's huge. So, yeah, but it is a business and and that needs to be treated like that.
Toby Ricketts
Yeah. Fantastic. Well, we've covered a lot of ground. Is there anything else that you wanted to sort of add?
Luke
No, no, look, it's been it's been a nice chat. I don't really do many of the well, I don't do any of these things. So I talked to a lot of our our artists have obviously, that's a big part of my job. But, you know, it's obviously something that I'm very passionate about is, is this this wonderful industry that's been good to me and, and it's filled with wonderful people and a lot of great characters. So, so nowadays, it's a great industry. It's a you know, it's it's a lot of hard work. But it's also a lot of fun.
Toby Ricketts
Absolutely. Couldn't said it better myself. Well done. Thank you so much lock downs from Rmi. Thank you so much for your time today.
Luke
Yeah, pleasure. Thanks for thanks for the chat.